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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 14:38

Are you saying that sporting bodies were permit trans inclusion, the prison service/MOJ and refuge's which admit trans women are all breaking the law?

What a complete deflection of what was being said, @jj1968. You are determined to suggest that separating sex and gender rights is transphobic even in events where its completely unfair and/or unsafe for biological females.

sanluca · 06/02/2021 14:38

Refuges not as much breaking it but not taking advantage of the possibility to be sinle sex because the government, in contradiction to their own law, make transwomen inclusion mandatory to receive state funding.

Impatiens · 06/02/2021 14:39

This 'no such thing as sex-based rights' is just another deceitful trans activist tactic brought over here from twitter.

Women/girls are attacked and discriminated against on the basis of their sex. Any rights they're entitled to, to help reduce the threat of violence or improve equality, are therefore sex-based.

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 14:40

[quote BrumBoo]@jj1968 you know that works both ways, right? It wasn't long ago I was a full-blown TRA. People change their views when presented with all manner of information. Especially when facts start speak for themselves outside of the internet.

What anti-trans propaganda were you referring to?[/quote]
Brumboo, being a full-blown trans could be interpreted in many different ways...

IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 14:40

Women using a women’s rights board to figure out how to bring women’s rights issues to the attention of more women.

It’s just so devious isn’t it!?

Whatwouldscullydo · 06/02/2021 14:41

Whyare you so militantly opposed to women's rights, protections and freedoms on the basis of sex?Whydo you want women to suffer such detriment, instead of advocating positively for trans people?

Its all a bit " if we cant have them no one can " they are allowed to exist provided thise that want access get access. If that doesn't Happen then remove them all together.

I cant get over the cognitive dissonance over fighting for the right to access a space you are lawfully allowed to be excluded from but that simultaneously apparently doesn't doesn't exist. Which is it? I mean whats actually being fought fir then ? Some activists are fighting for the rights of male people entering female spaces citing psychological distress and safety but these same spaces don't exist ? You want the safety of a space that doesn't exist ? Huh?

Jintyfer · 06/02/2021 14:42

@MaudTheInvincible

Shhh this is definitely to be kept top secret!

No one must know about this publicly available piece of writing!

Don't let the cat out of the bag, whatever you do!

https://twitter.com/LesbianLabour/status/1357838444609875974?s=20

JFC Hmm

Nice one @MaudTheInvincible yeah that's the one, that top secret bat signal. Shhh 🤫
redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 14:43

@IWillSqueakAgain

Women using a women’s rights board to figure out how to bring women’s rights issues to the attention of more women.

It’s just so devious isn’t it!?

We couldn't have done it better if we had organised it, really!
BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 14:46

Brumboo, being a full-blown trans could be interpreted in many different ways

I said TRA - trans rights activist. I wasn't trans myself! I used to be the one shouting that MN was full of transphobes, I've openly admitted this in the past and how wrong I was.

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 14:46

@Whatwouldscullydo

Whyare you so militantly opposed to women's rights, protections and freedoms on the basis of sex?Whydo you want women to suffer such detriment, instead of advocating positively for trans people?

Its all a bit " if we cant have them no one can " they are allowed to exist provided thise that want access get access. If that doesn't Happen then remove them all together.

I cant get over the cognitive dissonance over fighting for the right to access a space you are lawfully allowed to be excluded from but that simultaneously apparently doesn't doesn't exist. Which is it? I mean whats actually being fought fir then ? Some activists are fighting for the rights of male people entering female spaces citing psychological distress and safety but these same spaces don't exist ? You want the safety of a space that doesn't exist ? Huh?

People fightimg to gain access to spheres inhabited by people they say don't exist. If it is a paradox then a new approach is needed
IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 14:48

Weird gc language? What like xe xem mew?

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 14:49

@BrumBoo

Brumboo, being a full-blown trans could be interpreted in many different ways

I said TRA - trans rights activist. I wasn't trans myself! I used to be the one shouting that MN was full of transphobes, I've openly admitted this in the past and how wrong I was.

Oh - my mistake - sorry - my joke fell flat too!
jj1968 · 06/02/2021 14:51

Stonewall are the leading group trying to achieve that erasure. They want the Equality Act exemptions which protect women on the basis of our female bodies removed (even as they advise bodies that they don't exist, in fact). They should not be allowed in schools, because they actively campaign to remove the rights of women and girls under the Equality Act.

Perhaps best to try stay vagely on topic than have yet another interminable debate about the Equality Act. It's very clear some people disagree with expert legal opinion on the subject. Hopefully the Anne Sinnott case will clear this up, if the courts agree to hear it, and if they don't, well that tells us what we need to know.

So how actively are Stonewall campaigning to remove the single sex exemptions? It's something that is often repeated yet I've never seen a poster from Stonewall calling for it, or even a tweet. I've barely even heard them mention it and not for years. They did recommend it in their evidence to the transgender inquiry nearly six years ago now on the basis it is hardly ever used, but I haven't seen any active campaigning on it since then. Is it even still their position? Has anyone ever checked with them?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 14:51

I'm sure there's been more than just an email from Glinner. You are after all openly plotting on FWR how to use AIBU to spread anti-trans propaganda.

Too funny GrinGrin anyone is allowed to post on AIBU if they have an AIBU. It's not "anti trans" just because women want to talk about women's rights to a wider audience, everyone posts "for traffic".

WeeTorag · 06/02/2021 14:51

@IWillSqueakAgain

Weird gc language? What like xe xem mew?
🔥 🔥🔥
BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 14:52

@redpencil77 I have an non-sleeping 3 year old, so I'm sorry if I misread anything through sleep deprivation! It's amazing my fried brain can actually keep up with any of this 'confusing' GC jargon to start with Wink.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 14:52

It's very clear some people disagree with expert legal opinion on the subject.

Legal experts themselves disagree, but I'm sure your Wot I Reckon can settle the matter.

Conkergame · 06/02/2021 14:54

OP YANBU it’s scary, they’re like an extremist cult! Shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near schools! Utterly bizarre that they’ve managed to make themselves mainstream, it’s like the emperor’s new clothes - nobody’s says anything because nobody else says anything...?!

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 14:55

@Whatwouldscullydo

Whyare you so militantly opposed to women's rights, protections and freedoms on the basis of sex?Whydo you want women to suffer such detriment, instead of advocating positively for trans people?

Its all a bit " if we cant have them no one can " they are allowed to exist provided thise that want access get access. If that doesn't Happen then remove them all together.

I cant get over the cognitive dissonance over fighting for the right to access a space you are lawfully allowed to be excluded from but that simultaneously apparently doesn't doesn't exist. Which is it? I mean whats actually being fought fir then ? Some activists are fighting for the rights of male people entering female spaces citing psychological distress and safety but these same spaces don't exist ? You want the safety of a space that doesn't exist ? Huh?

Trans people aren't fighting for access to these spaces, trans people already use these spaces and always have. Trans inclusive laws have been in place since the 70s, were strengthened in 1999, and reinforced in the 2010 Equality Act. Lots of people are fighting to try and overturn those protections and obviously many trans people object to that but most trans people are just living their lives and using spaces inline with their aquired gender as they have done for half a century or more.
IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 14:56

I don’t know why you expect us to be thrown by how people speak on other forums jj.

I speak to family, friends, other parents at school, teachers, parent governors, my kids camhs teams, Ed psych, peads, Ot, salt, play therapists and so on. Have been doing so for years.

Never have I met anyone who swallows twaw. Those who think they are doing so to be polite wise up pretty quick when faced with facts and logic.

Most parents don’t live their lives online, so we get to see what the bubble of the real world thinks.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 14:56

Are you saying that sporting bodies were permit trans inclusion, the prison service/MOJ and refuge's which admit trans women are all breaking the law?

Potentially, yes. If a court decided that allowing say male cross dressers (under the trans umbrella) into a women's single sex space was creating a hostile environment for women and girls. That is a possible interpretation.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 14:57

Or in fact, any males.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 06/02/2021 14:57

Maternity and pregnancy protections are female sexed based rights.

Cult like language?
You mean saying there are only 2 sexes?
Wanting single sex spaces?

What rights in the UK do trans people already not have?
Apart from males being allowed access to every single space where females and children are at their most vulnerable?

Why should their subjective belief in an ideology based on feelings override the majority view and another groups oppression, along with that groups ability to fight that oppression?

Why can't they accept that other people don't share their view without having to force us to pretend sex isn't real?

Whatwouldscullydo · 06/02/2021 14:57

Half a century ago trans didn't mean what it means now .

I suggest you are better taking it up with the activists who include any male who says they are a woman even if its once a week amd ruined it fir the less than 5000 people with a grc who were just going about their business.

That's on them not us. You are fighting the wrong people

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 15:01

The more sunlight the better I reckon. For every person you convert to the cult a dozen more are carefully backing away whilst rolling their eyes.

PROJECTION. Ever thought of getting a job in a cinema when they open up again?