Third facilities

[wordsinourmouths]

Compromise position proposed by many in response to those who don’t want to use the facilities for their sex, mixed family groups, and those who don’t care or who are trans allies.
YABU = no this won’t work/ be enough/ would be unsafe
YANBU = fully support/ it might work/a chance for everyone to get some of what we want.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Though I don't see how a third space could ever be an only third space. Then we are talking about a single unisex facility. A third space refers to there being a first and a second space (male and female) otherwise it really isn't a third space.

So I am YANBU to third spaces (i.e where there is a first and second space that are female and male single sex)

I am NOT pro a "one single unisex space for all" solution!

I think a very foreseeable problem is that once the third space has come into existence, shorty thereafter there will be a movement to the effect "Everyone can use this space, so why do we need to build the ones that half the people can't use?" -- mostly brought on by the fact that building all three will cost more than building only one. So the first two, men-only and women-only, have to be legislated for as they are at present, and never allowed to be eroded and eroded until they vanish.

Isn't the same true for observant male members of the same religious beliefs, but reversed: they absolutely must not be alone or in close proximity with a female-bodied person who is not directly related to them?

Yes. One of the worst and most disrespectful things I've ever witnessed was a "transman" coming to my synagogue (Orthodox), sitting in the men's area, and accepting a handshake from the elderly rabbi who thought she was actually male. Absolutely disgusting behaviour.

Thank you for giving a concrete example of what I was trying to get at.

It's really contrary to civilised behaviour, as well as deeply unpleasant, to attack someone's sincere religious belief in such a way; not something I would ever want to make acceptable, in any way shape or form. This applies whether I agree with the particular religious belief or not: some evangelical Christian sects in the US give me cold shudders, but I still support their right to the belief except if they are harming others because of it.

No, I don’t think that comparison has been done. But it’s well-documented that transpeople experience a significant amount of violence and hate crime.

I used to think that - everyone says it so it must be true yes? But then I started looking a bit closer, at the ‘spiralling’ hate crime reports and realised that they count misgendering or someone feeling a bit insulted in the hate crime stats. I also started seeing women getting arrested and held in the cells for being a bit rude to someone on Twitter (I am not condoning being rude to people but arrested and thrown in the cells is a bit much). Then I read a report about a teenager with Aspergers in wales who was charged with Aggravated hate crime because he shouted at a transgender cop to ask whether they are a boy or a girl.

Remember, people with atypical neuro conditions often speak as they find things. The judge fined him and made an example of him because of the transgender officer. I saw a breakdown of the numbers and the amount of actual physical violence suffered is but nearly as high as it is made out.

So I am questioning this nice and so far I have seen no real evidence that they are in any more danger than my teenage son using the men’s.

Do women experience a lot of violence in men’s toilets? Do you mean transmen and/or transwomen?. I just mean women in general. Everyone seems to be so focussed on the perceived danger to trans people but actually figures show that they are among the safest demographic in the uk (Channel4 fact check). Women get murdered at a rate of approx 200 per year but Angela Rayner doesn’t make videos to commemorate them. She did however manage to make a video to commemorate the murdered transgender people last year. Of which there were none. And none the year before either.

So I remain open to evidence on this but I am very much questioning the received wisdom that trans people are in any greater danger in the men’s toilets than other groups of males and therefore what justifies their claim to have to use women’s toilets for their safety.

In a men's lavatory an obvious woman might be spoken to offensively, I suppose. But more likely not, unless it is a lads' night out sort of event; both my husbands, and several other men I know, have told me that it is considered very bad manners to look at the man having a piss next to you at the urinals, for instance, so someone being female might not even be noticed.

Or do they all simply have better manners than most men? It is possible.