Third facilities

[wordsinourmouths]

Compromise position proposed by many in response to those who don’t want to use the facilities for their sex, mixed family groups, and those who don’t care or who are trans allies.
YABU = no this won’t work/ be enough/ would be unsafe
YANBU = fully support/ it might work/a chance for everyone to get some of what we want.

@Stompythedinosaur

As a woman, I want people to listen to me regarding issues regarding sexism.

Accordingly, I believe we should listen to trans people regarding issues regarding discrimination against trans people.

The law is pretty clear that we should not be treating people differently on the basis of being trans, so this solution doesn't work, it's discriminatory.

Trans under the Stonewall definition includes cross dressing males and self ID allows any man who says he is a woman with making no changes to his physical appearance to declare he is a woman.

It is a safeguarding issue to allow any man who says he is a woman to enter single sex provisions.

Women have the right to say no. It is not bigoted to say no.

I'm fine with third spaces if people want them (and where they are practical), but they don't solve the problem do they. Transwomen want to be in the women's area whichever area that is and no amount of shuffling about or compromising can change that.

Really we should have separate lockable secure spaces that are for everyone. The idea of toilet cubicles is gross anyway, the gaps are too big, I dont want to hear your poo dropping into the toilet, kids mess about, people queuing in front of the sinks, no where to wash reuseable sanitary products. No matter gender we should all have privacy and security when using the toilet.

A third space wouldn't work, you're asking trans men and women to get changed or use the toilets together. That's not appropriate. And you cant ask trans men and women to get changed in the same space as young children if that's what you're suggesting.

I want trans women to be protected, as I want all people to be protected. Trans people are on a massive spectrum from when they started to transitioning, how long they've been transitioning, what gender reassignment they've had. Some are just as vulnerable as genetic women, some are just as much a threat as genetic men.

I agree and would feel more comfortable with this however I suspect it won’t be enough for those who want to use the facilities of the gender they identify with.

Stompythedinosaur
But that's like say that you believe in people with red hair, because they are people, but you really think they are deluded people with brown hair because there is no such thing as red hair.

No, it really isn't. There is a difference between sex and gender. One is a biological fact; the other is a social belief. Anyone can and many do change their gender; none has yet changed their sex. (A very few are of neither sex, or both, but they can't actually change that either, just choose to appear more one or the other.)

I believe absolutely that trans-gender people exist, because my knowledge of trans people as friends goes back fifty years or so. I haven't been talking to "my invisible friend" all these years.

Happy with 3 spaces- male, female, unisex (or even more than 3 if places have the space!)

Personally, I don’t think it is a solution because:

• Most places won’t have the space or resources to construct a third space and we will therefore see an increase in unisex spaces without any single sex provision, and I think it is generally acknowledged that this would be a negative thing; and
• Third spaces won’t protect transpeople from male violence.

I don’t understand the logic of saying that it is not appropriate to change together. Why is that? There are also some women who say they don’t mind sharing such a space, so you can all have a mixed sex space where being trans would be the norm. Why is that unacceptable to you God ? Agree that children are better off in the changing rooms for their sex. Women need facilities different to what transwomen need. However trans men could use female facilities as they would mostly need the same..if they don’t want to they would still have the mixed sex or men’s for validation. What men say about that I don’t really care, but nearly all women are saying no to men of any gender in female sex protected facilities.the women that don’t mind would be fee to give all the validation required to the trans people in the third space.

It is not our role to stop male violence but it is our role to take of women and girls . Which is what single sex spaces are for.

Stompy but the whole point is that it is the trans lobby by and large that is saying that being trans is different, and exceptional and must have access to another groups formerly safer facilities. We can’t make decisions on every occasion between harmless men and predatory men and clothes and identity make no difference to our view.

@Langrycleg

But I also wonder how safe this third space might be for children if anyone can go there? Hospitals no, toilets , changing no, prisons no, but I am glad that enough people who don’t mind will be happy to support those that need to use them.

There’s a London theatre who made their main toilet provision mixed sex and I think they put a sign up saying not suitable for children... so now any woman that doesn’t want to share with men (or can’t) of has children with her has to troop off downstairs and queue for the single sex facility.

That doesn’t sound like an improvement!!

@Buddytheelf85

Personally, I don’t think it is a solution because:

• Most places won’t have the space or resources to construct a third space and we will therefore see an increase in unisex spaces without any single sex provision, and I think it is generally acknowledged that this would be a negative thing; and
• Third spaces won’t protect transpeople from male violence.

Can you provide any evidence that trans people are at any more danger in men’s toilets than other vulnerable male groups like teenagers or small camp men?

I’ve been looking and can’t find anything atm. Lots of violence against women though.

@pumpkinbump

I do wonder about this though, let's say we did have third spaces, and these were being used by predominantly men or male bodied people, women and possibly transmen would feel more comfortable using female spaces anyway, therefore, the third space would end up being male spaces which of course, for various reasons, various men would not be happy with.

The deal with third spaces would need to be so that women can have single sex spaces. Families and trans/nb people in the third spaces. Otherwise there’s no point in a third space.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Something which occurs to me sometimes is that a lot is always said about women who because of their strict faith (I assume Muslin, Orthodox Jewish, some sects of Christianity?) cannot/absolutely may not use facilities or be in spaces in which they may have to encounter a partly-clothed male-bodied person, or indeed be close to an unrelated-to-them male-bodied person at all if there is nobody else present.

Isn't the same true for observant male members of the same religious beliefs, but reversed: they absolutely must not be alone or in close proximity with a female-bodied person who is not directly related to them? I'm thinking here of Orthodox Jewish men asking to have a female person moved from the seat next to them on an aeroplane, or of Mike Pence never being alone with a woman, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. Third space facilities would be of no use to them, so they need male-body-only spaces in the same way that religious women need female-body-only ones. Having only third space facilities definitely isn't the answer for them any more than mixed-sex ones is.

Pumpkinbump, if there is a third space toilet then a parent of either sex could go into it with a child of either sex so a problem about children using it shouldn't arise in that case, I wouldn't have thought. But toilets are not the only places in which people who need single-sex spaces exist: there are also hospital wards, prisons, gym and swimming changing rooms, school dormitories (which are a safeguarding of children matter) and so on. Thinking only of public toilets is seeing only a very small part of the question, I feel.

I understand the OP as meaning keeping the two single sex spaces (male only, female only) and adding a third mixed sex space which anyone can choose to use if they don't want to use the single sex space for their sex (not gender/gender identity).

So surely the orthodox jewish men could then use the male only space?

I agree with 3rd spaces, but I also agree this is only a very small part of the conversation. What do we do about the following:

Hospital wards
Prisons
School changing rooms
Girl guides
Rape/domestic violence shelters
Sports
Positions designed to increase female representation

Then if we go even further what about the erasure of the word woman?
How can you tackle discrimination against women if anyone can now be a women? (As seen with the breastfeeding case in America, she lost because now men can breastfeed too so it's not discriminatory)
Gender pay gap? Soon won't exist because of all the TW who get paid male salaries in female roles
Female violence huge increase due to what? Male crimes being recorded as female?
Lesbians being told they are transphobic for not wanting to sleep with TW who still have a penis.
Women being sacked for fighting for their sex based rights.

The list goes on... seriously toilets are a very small part of this issue.

@Stompythedinosaur

As a woman, I want people to listen to me regarding issues regarding sexism.

Accordingly, I believe we should listen to trans people regarding issues regarding discrimination against trans people.

The law is pretty clear that we should not be treating people differently on the basis of being trans, so this solution doesn't work, it's discriminatory.

Treat them differently from other people of their same sex. Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic where sex is the comparator. So a male person being prevented from using the mens toilet because he is presenting as a transwoman would be discrimination on the grounds of gender reassignment.

Though I fully agree that a transwoman should be able to use the mens faciities without facing any discrimination from other males I appreciate that many transwomen and transmen might benefit from a third, mixed space option, to avoid receiving abuse from other males.

Can you provide any evidence that trans people are at any more danger in men’s toilets than other vulnerable male groups like teenagers or small camp men?

I’ve been looking and can’t find anything atm. Lots of violence against women though.

No, I don’t think that comparison has been done. But it’s well-documented that transpeople experience a significant amount of violence and hate crime.

Do women experience a lot of violence in men’s toilets? Do you mean transmen and/or transwomen?

To be clear I think unisex facilities would be an absolute disaster for women because of male violence (everyone knows about the rise is voyeuristic pornography, etc). My concern is that I think third spaces will lead to unisex spaces, because of a lack of space and/or resources. It’s already happening. And it’s a spectacular own goal.

SorryPleaseTryAgain (very appropriate name! I'll try...)
I wrote
"Something which occurs to me sometimes is that a lot is always said about women who because of their strict faith (I assume Muslin, Orthodox Jewish, some sects of Christianity?) cannot/absolutely may not use facilities or be in spaces in which they may have to encounter a partly-clothed male-bodied person, or indeed be close to an unrelated-to-them male-bodied person at all if there is nobody else present.
"Isn't the same true for observant male members of the same religious beliefs, but reversed: they absolutely must not be alone or in close proximity with a female-bodied person who is not directly related to them? I'm thinking here of Orthodox Jewish men asking to have a female person moved from the seat next to them on an aeroplane, or of Mike Pence never being alone with a woman, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. Third space facilities would be of no use to them, so they need male-body-only spaces in the same way that religious women need female-body-only ones. Having only third space facilities definitely isn't the answer for them any more than mixed-sex ones is."

I understand the OP as meaning keeping the two single sex spaces (male only, female only) and adding a third mixed sex space which anyone can choose to use if they don't want to use the single sex space for their sex (not gender/gender identity).
So surely the orthodox jewish men could then use the male only space?

Yes, they could, can and do, provided it really is a male only space. In the same way, strict-religious women can use the female only space provided it really is a female only space.

Neither group would not be able to use a mixed-sex space. I was agreeing with the OP.

But is far as I can make out only the women are ever used as an example of why having only mixed-sex spaces is the wrong way to go; never the men. Or at least, I don't recall such men ever being mentioned in this context; but surely they have a problem with only third spaces too?

(And that makes it another strike against the law, because religion, like sex, is a protected characteristic.)

"Neither group would not be able to use a mixed-sex space." Please ignore the stray "not" in that sentence; I think it sneaked in from a slight re-drafting.

I’d be in favour of doing away with both men’s and women’s bogs, and just making all loos/changing rooms single-occupancy “identify as a fridge if that’s how you feel today matey” cubicles. Would completely solve the issue overnight.

Of course, they’d have to open onto a main corridor rather than more rooms inside rooms.

Simple just to keep the single sex facilities for those born male and female ( applies to everything, not just toilets,) as the male bodied people only want validation, I think it’s clear that we women do not agree with them being there. So no compromise then, fair enough

@ChristOnAPeloton

I’d be in favour of doing away with both men’s and women’s bogs, and just making all loos/changing rooms single-occupancy “identify as a fridge if that’s how you feel today matey” cubicles. Would completely solve the issue overnight.

Of course, they’d have to open onto a main corridor rather than more rooms inside rooms.

That would be an ideal, certainly, so long as they had wash-basins and sanitary-towel disposal bins or better (because people are stupid enough to set fire to bins) chutes set into the wall for the disposal of sanitary towels. Then there could be rooms set aside for changing nappies in, as well.

It ain't going to happen, but it would be an ideal.

There would also have to be regular cleaners, to clear up the mess made by men who think they are tom-cats and feel obliged to spray their urine all over the place to mark their territory, of course.

Some gym and swimming changing rooms do already have individual rooms to change in, complete with shower, God bless them! The gym I went to before Covid did.

Unfortunately it isn't really a possible answer for hospital wards, prisons, school dormitories and the like.

@Langrycleg

But I also wonder how safe this third space might be for children if anyone can go there? Hospitals no, toilets , changing no, prisons no, but I am glad that enough people who don’t mind will be happy to support those that need to use them.

Great for loos and changing rooms - use the mixed sex when with an opposite sex parent, correct single sex if alone or with same sex parent. Better than the current situation for parents with opposite sex kids, surely?

Depends. Am happy to use fully enclosed individual stalls in a toilet (ones with sinks included in the stall), so would be a good compromise in terms of that aspect if that was the only provision available (would also make it fairer in terms of queuing!)

However I stopped going to my local leisure centre because they got rid of the male/female changing rooms and made it all individual stalls because I absolutely hated the fact that gangs of teenage boys wandered around when you were changing, plus didn't feel comfortable walking from the shower to the cubicle in just a towel, etc.

so in that sense it would depend what 'third space' was - e.g. there would need to be a female only changing room, a male only changing room, and then a third space for families/gender neutral/etc., not 'just' the third space. However that would still have the existing issues regarding if a trans person wanted to use the single sex facility and not the gender neutral one so not sure if it would help!

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I see what you mean now and I agree. The single sex spaces would need to remain single sex, not just for females but also for men. I can completely understand why any man, religious or not, may prefer a single sex space to get changed, go to the toilet in, when in a hospital ward etc.