To think that JK Rowling is being very unfairly treated.

[Impatiens]

For some people the name JK Rowling seems to have become a byword for 'bigot' or 'transphobe' - you only have to mention her name on twitter to cause a storm of accusations and abuse about her and I think it's really unjust.

This week it was announced that a new Harry Potter TV series is in development. Cue howls of outrage from certain people, repeating the same insults and even accusing her of being a bad influence on children. I feel so bad for her. She's always been someone who seemed to want to do good with her wealth and whose books (whether you like them or not) sent a positive message about the need to fight against evil.

A very brief recap of things Rowling has said about the trans debate that have caused anger -

1. Human biological sex can't be changed (females can't become males/vice versa) and no one should lose their job for saying that.

1. The word 'Woman' is being erased, particularly from important health messages that only affect females, and replaced with dehumanising terms like 'menstruators', 'cervix-havers' etc

1. Children/young people who have Gender Dysphoria/Identify as Transgender, shouldn't be given medication as part of any treatment because they're too young to understand the potential side effects.

YABU = JK Rowling's comments were offensive and she deserves the abuse she gets
YANBU = JK Rowling's comments were respectful opinions and she's entitled to voice them without getting abuse.

Of course I don’t think it that’s simple @ToadsThePeanutButterSnob. Hence the need for detailed and critical assessment of an individual’s situation rather than the current gender-affirmation culture of assessment. I’m not sure if anyone on MN is getting what I am trying to say. I 99.99% agree with you all, but there is a small group where the situation is different and the risk of gender transition and all that entails outweigh the risks and they have capacity to make that decision. It’s rare so unlikely that you will have any personal experience....

The small group that lots of people here recognise as being harmed by the current trans rights activists?

@ToadsThePeanutButterSnob

A quick Google search shows that there is little to no research on how puberty blockers impact brain development. So if we don't know how they effect brain development then how does the argument that they will be able to make a decision later hold any weight? And more importantly why the hell are we dishing them out to our kids when we have no idea how it is impacting their brains or if any impact is reversable?

I am not entirely sure how puberty blockers are prescribed. Whoever prescribes them this way should basically go to jail and should have their license revoked. It’s just not clear to me how this is possible.

An 18yo is more likely to be able to make a complex decision than a 12yo. And in the meantime their body hasn’t gone through the physical changes of puberty. That’s the point of puberty blockers. I accept your point that they may cause brain changes that arguably might affect later decision making, hence the need for detailed evaluation. You seem to be characterising me as simplistic, when actually I am trying to point out that the reality is more complex.

These kids are essentially being used as guinea pigs. It is sickening.

@BudgieHammockBananaSmuggler

An 18yo is more likely to be able to make a complex decision than a 12yo. And in the meantime their body hasn’t gone through the physical changes of puberty. That’s the point of puberty blockers. I accept your point that they may cause brain changes that arguably might affect later decision making, hence the need for detailed evaluation. You seem to be characterising me as simplistic, when actually I am trying to point out that the reality is more complex.

An 18 year old can only make more complex decisions than a 12 year old if their brain has developed. But we don't know how puberty blockers impact brain development and to what extent because there isn't enough research available. So how do we know that puberty blockers don't stop brain development completley? The simple answer is we don't.

It's actually quite sickening. We are using these children as guinea pigs. Just pump them full of drugs and hope for the best.

@BudgieHammockBananaSmuggler

An 18yo is more likely to be able to make a complex decision than a 12yo. And in the meantime their body hasn’t gone through the physical changes of puberty. That’s the point of puberty blockers. I accept your point that they may cause brain changes that arguably might affect later decision making, hence the need for detailed evaluation. You seem to be characterising me as simplistic, when actually I am trying to point out that the reality is more complex.

So puberty blockers don’t affect brain? Which metabolic, immune and hormonal systems do they affect? How many of those systems are then connected with brain and in what way? Forget the blockers for a second, how does puberty affect brain?

You need at least two groups of children in a clinical trial for this sort of experiment: one that receives a puberty blockers and one that doesn’t.
There are many other factors that need to be considered but I should stop here.

The brain is an organ. An organ in which lots of changes occur during puberty. Quite frankly I would be very surprised if puberty blocker don't have somewhat of a negative effect on brain development.

@BudgieHammockBananaSmuggler
I was being sarcastic when I write puberty blockers don’t affect brain.

DISCLAIMER: DON’T try this at home.

Budgie - I'm confused about your argument but I don't want to sound like I'm having a go at you while you're basically trying to agree!

To me, using drugs like Lupron on confused kids - it just turns my stomach. I can't see any justification for it, given what's known about the side effects from their use in other areas.

@LastTrainEast

They are frustrated because they can't get her fired or beat her.

I'm not sure how much this nonsense will upset her, she must be laughing all the way to the bank!

@FrostyChocolateMilkshake

YANBU OP.

Rowling has had a brutal time with the media and public recently, for basically saying what most of us are thinking.

Whatever happened to "freedom of speech" 🤔

'Freedom of speech' has morphed into 'freedom to agree with the very vocal minority'.

BudgieHammockBananaSmuggler
An 18yo is more likely to be able to make a complex decision than a 12yo. And in the meantime their body hasn’t gone through the physical changes of puberty. That’s the point of puberty blockers. I accept your point that they may cause brain changes that arguably might affect later decision making, hence the need for detailed evaluation. You seem to be characterising me as simplistic, when actually I am trying to point out that the reality is more complex.

This is true. But in the meantime physical side-effects of the puberty blockers may well have done that 12/13/14/15/16/17 year old actual harm, which is not reversible. Bone density cannot be magically restored, blood disorders carry on, joint problems don't disappear, sterilisation seems to be for the rest of your life, and so on. It's quite a gamble to assume that a given individual will suffer none of the ten-per-cent-possibilities: there are an awful lot of them to not-get.

And nobody seems to have the slightest idea what they may do to the function of the thyroid, because it seems that nobody has even checked. The only gland they are sure puberty blockers alter is the pituitary -- and you mess with any of the ductless glands at your peril, because they are all fairly carefully balanced and if they get out of whack they tend to stay that way unless you have medical intervention, in the case of the thyroid for the rest of your life.

Maybe it's worth it; at the moment at least, a thyroid problem gets you free prescriptions. And you are going to need those if you transition and go the route which leads to life-long medication.

Yanbu.

Thanks @Impatiens for appreciating that I am generally agreeing with the arguments here (in this thread and many others)

Really my only point is there is a small group of people where the situation is more complex and I don’t think they should be lumped with the much bigger group of trans people that (rightfully) stoke up debate here on Mumsnet and everywhere else.

For this group of people it is more complex. There are no right answers. Of course there are issues with puberty blockers. Of course! But this has to be counterbalanced by the risk of not using them. I’ve only brought up puberty blockers as this was mentioned on the very first post. It’s just one aspect of the incredibly complex decisions that this tiny percentage of whom I consider to be true trans people have to struggle through.

Anyway I’d be interested to hear if anyone understands what I am trying to say. I’m not naturally argumentative!

Budgie no problem but I still don't get your point. When you say -

"Of course there are issues with puberty blockers. Of course! But this has to be counterbalanced by the risk of not using them."

I just don't get what risk there is supposed to be from not taking them that would at all outweigh the massive risk of using them. Or how any clinician is supposed to be able to determine which belong to the small group you mention and which don't.

Of course there are issues with puberty blockers.
What you call ‘issues’ are basically ‘adverse events’ and are adverse enough to not be approved, hence the off label use.
It boils my blood.

Life is sweeter without Twitter in it. The powers that be at Twitter have no problem censoring when it suits them, but they turn a blind eye to offenders with whom they sympathise. It's a sick place.

YANBU - She's 100 percent correct IMHO.

Cancel culture is just wrong on so many levels.

Some woke lemmings are so "open minded" their brains have fallen out.

@ImpatiensTo be direct, if person going through male puberty lives their life as a woman, they will just look like a man in a dress. Which may have have ongoing psychological impact for their whole lives. A more ‘natural’ transition may avoid this. That’s the basic point.

It would be difficult to identify this small group as you say. However I would exclude anyone who experienced dysphoria as a teenager and would only consider those where there was strong collateral information that the person had lived as the different gender for essentially their whole life

Anyway I am bowing out as it is tomorrow now and I realise I have derailed this thread from the original topic. Hurrah for JKR! X

An 18yo is more likely to be able to make a complex decision than a 12yo. And in the meantime their body hasn’t gone through the physical changes of puberty. That’s the point of puberty blockers.

And neither has their brain gone through the physical changes of puberty.

Not only has their physical development been halted, distorted and damaged, so have their mental and emotional development.

An 18yo who has been on puberty blockers for several years does not have the mind of an 18yo who has experienced puberty. I doubt they are any better able to make such a complex decision than they were at 12yo.

Un medicated, over 80% of trans-identifying teenagers desist. Medicated with blockers, over 90% continue to cross-sex hormones. Does this tell you that clinicians who prescribe blockers have a stunning ability to identify 'genuine' trans, or that blockers are part of the problem?