AIBU to question the popular belief that there are more stars in the sky than grains of sand on earth?

[Tryingtryingandtrying]

How can this possibly be true? Tbh I'd question if there were more stars than grains of sand on my local beach? I've read a bit around it and still is impossible for me to comprehend. Any other facts or theories that just don't make sense to you?

"Infinity" is also a moveable feast.

Think of all the numbers going up to "infinity"
Now just think of all the even numbers going up to "infinity"

One infinity is half the size of the other.

DGRossetti

I’m not sure that’s the same. Numbers aren’t a true infinity because numbers are a construct.

@AStudyinPink

It isn't expanding into anything - it's already infinitely big, so asking what's beyond infinitely far away makes no sense.

Because to me, something already infinitely big can’t be getting bigger, because ‘bigger’ as a concept presupposes a previously measurable size. 😂

But I’m not a scientist. I’m just a person waiting for a scientist to make sense.

Yeah. That's why I said that there are senses in which it would be better just to say "galaxies are getting further apart". Neither that nor "space expanding" exactly corresponds to what's actually happening in the maths, but to explain the maths you need that stack of textbooks I mentioned.

If you want it all to truly make sense then you need to learn the maths of the models and how they relate to the experimental tests that underpin them. The major lesson of physics over the last century or so has been that our every-day experience of "what makes sense" is an extremely poor guide to the world outside our narrow range of daily experience.

@DGRossetti

"Infinity" is also a moveable feast.

Think of all the numbers going up to "infinity"
Now just think of all the even numbers going up to "infinity"

One infinity is half the size of the other.

(No, they have the same cardinality (cardinality is the formalisation of "size of a set" for sets that are infinite). Take any number, even or odd, and multiply it by two. Now you have an even number, unique to the number you started with. So there must be as many even numbers as there are integers.

Infinities are fun!

That's why I said that there are senses in which it would be better just to say "galaxies are getting further apart". Neither that nor "space expanding" exactly corresponds to what's actually happening in the maths, but to explain the maths you need that stack of textbooks I mentioned.

You see, I don’t get that. Unless Maths is describing something real, that can be articulated to an intelligent human, I’m not sure about it. It could be anything and make no sense at all. So I’ll be convinced when scientists begin to make sense.

Just in case we are still talking about the original question

www.universetoday.com/106725/are-there-more-grains-of-sand-than-stars/#:~:text=According%20to%20Jason%2C%20there%20about%20700%20trillion%20cubic,grains%20of%20sand%20on%20all%20the%20world’s%20beaches.

The Universe is full of weird shit, but this isn’t at all weird and I don’t get what the OP can’t understand.

The reason there are more stars in the universe than grains of sand on Earth is that the Universe is FUCKING ENORMOUS. HTH.

Unless Maths is describing something real, that can be articulated to an intelligent human, I’m not sure about it.

What do you mean by 'describing something real'? Do you have a problem with complex numbers or calculations in more dimensions than you can visualise?

What do you mean by 'describing something real'? Do you have a problem with complex numbers or calculations in more dimensions than you can visualise?

Nope. If you read the posts above, you’ll see that I am reacting to the argument that the reality of the Universe is such that it can be communicated mathematically but not verbally, except on a simplified level that obviously doesn’t make sense. And my point is, fine, but don’t expect me to believe the simplification. Find a way to communicate that makes sense, and I will consider it.

Do you have a problem with complex numbers or calculations in more dimensions than you can visualise?

And I suppose the real answer would be yes, I do have a problem with calculations in more dimensions than I can visualise, if by ‘problem’ do you mean I am not and probably never will be a professional mathematician.

But I’m not a scientist. I’m just a person waiting for a scientist to make sense.

Scientists have made sense, just not to you. But that's on you.

I feel like Astudy just can't get their head around something existing outside their own understanding.

And my point is, fine, but don’t expect me to believe the simplification. Find a way to communicate that makes sense, and I will consider it.

That's actually quite an arrogant position. It's a bit like monoglot anglophone tourists expecting the rest of the world to speak English and sneering at their attempts. (Only a very approximate analogy)
I'm a mere chemist, very happy with multidimensional calculations etc but don't profess to understand much of cosmology. I understand enough to know that's my limitation.

The universe is not only queerer than we imagine; it is queerer than we can imagine.

J B S Haldane ...

That's actually quite an arrogant position. It's a bit like monoglot anglophone tourists expecting the rest of the world to speak English and sneering at their attempts.

Hardly. We all live in the Universe. No tourists here. If you expect me to believe what you say, learn to say it in a way that makes sense. The numbers mean something in the real world; if you can’t express that, how do you know (even) what you think they mean?

burfordbrown

Of course I can’t get my head around what is outside my understanding. That is a tautological nonsense.

Scientists have made sense, just not to you. But that's on you.

No, it’s on them, if they want people to believe what they say.

The don't just want people to 'believe' what they say. Their peers review their work and chuck it out if it's rubbish.

It's not a load of scientists saying 'trust me bro'

It's not a load of scientists saying 'trust me bro'

It’s a community of people asserting that things are ‘true’ that they can’t explain in a language anyone else can understand. That’s fine. I don’t mind. But I will only believe it when it is translated: numbers to concepts. What are the physical laws you think you are describing? And if they make sense, I’ll believe them.

What are the physical laws you think you are describing? And if they make sense, I’ll believe them.

Loads of laws in science are counter intuitive. Starting with the quantum mechanics mentioned upthread. If they don't make sense ... well that's your sense that is fucked, not the universe.

The idea that the Universe needs your belief to exist is an interesting philosophical idea. But hasn't really been translated into science yet.

The idea that the Universe needs your belief to exist is an interesting philosophical idea.

Interesting. Who said that?

Numbers are a concept aren’t they, it’s just an idea. I believe in them even though it’s sometimes a bit convenient that the workings of the universe seem to fit the concept so well?

@ThePants999

Whenever I want to feel insignificant, I like to look at the Hubble Ultra Deep Field. Click on upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Hubble_ultra_deep_field_high_rez_edit1.jpg, zoom in, and marvel at the fact that the tiniest dots in this image are galaxies with hundreds of billions of stars - and that this picture represents one twenty-sixth-millionth of the sky.

Nothing makes me calmer than this. I am so indescribably tiny in the universe... it's excellent for reducing my anxiety to even start to comprehend just how very, very tiny I am!

If they don't make sense ... well that's your sense that is fucked, not the universe.

That’s not only impolite, it’s silly. I don’t think either is ‘fucked’. I think, like any sensible person, I only have a responsibility to believe what has been clearly explained.

Numbers are a concept aren’t they, it’s just an idea.

No, mathematical models that attempt to describe the Universe aren’t describing concepts. They are describing reality. If you can’t communicate (in real terms) what they mean, you might need to confront the possibility that either you’re not sure what they mean, or something went wrong somewhere in the calculation. It should be possible to describe what you are thinking about in human language.