to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

I keep posting this but nobody's commented - so maybe it's not as interesting as I think it is!

Strangers impose the belief of FC on my kids. From the school organising presents from Santa, to little old ladies asking if they've been good enough for Santa to visit. No-one bats an eyelid at that.

It's only a problem if you make it so.

When I was an infant teacher, despite being a Christian I was always careful to put things across in the context of 'Christians believe'...just as 'Muslims/Hindus/Jews (etc) believe.....'. I can't see how it would be right to give children my beliefs as a fact that they would then believe due to their teacher always being right .

I am sorry some parents have had experience of children being told things as reported earlier in this thread, but please don't tar Christians all with one brush. Some of us are very reasonable, thinking people you know! Even if we do believe in mumbo jumbo

Fascinating thread. Shame some on it don't have as much respect as others. sigh....

Habbibu
seeker that is a useful page, I am considering going in to see the HT at dd1's school and offering my services

Rhubard, completely agree re FC. Seems like thinking is v skewed on this. Yet it's accepted as what's done.

Rhubarb, I can't believe that you are comparing a belief in FC (which children will grow out of by the time they are seven or so, and means believing a nice man brings them presents) with Christianity
you can't possibly be serious
no one ever died for expressing a disbelief or a disbelief in FC.
Priests of the church of the Holy Santa Claus do not preach that homosexuality is evil, that we are born sinful and must be saved by a big man in a red coat or go to hell.
&c.

fairy stories are not religions
and vice versa.
blimey if I compared Jesus with the Tooth Fairy you would all go I am sure
and quite rightly

Yes Harpsi, the comparison falls down after a while, but initially children are given this story as a truth, as something they can believe in, told to them by trusted adults. Perhaps the anology is in the fact that many people don't like their children being told that Christianity is truth, without any encouragement to think for themselves (and rightly so.) So what some Christians (and others no doubt) feel in FC case is the same. Perhaps we don't want our children to be fed lies (and in this I totally appreciate what all the atheists are saying when it comes to Xty in schools, as they see it as lies too). I don't think it can be compared beyond that.

yes not quite sure about the FC analogy. I suppose what rhubarb is saying is, as some of you do see believing in Christianity is the same as believing in fairies, then shouldn't you be equally annoyed with the 'indoctrination' of either. But yes, the Church has unfortunately been responsible for many bad things [although you could argue so has democracy but that doesn't mean we condemn it]
I quite liked the humanist assembly idea seeker. I would still like children to have the possibility of a spiritual life as an option. Tricky tho.

actually I am not mad keen on the FC thing either.
as you might expect
but I don't think it is an analogy that holds much water at all.
religion is so much more siginificant an influence on a person's life than the belief or not in FC for a few years.
but fwiw I respect anyone who doesn't want their child to be told that FC is true.
and best of luck

Actually, we've always dealt with fairy stories and so on with a little mantra "It's a myth. A myth is a story about something that happened so long ago that nobody knows for sure whether it's true or not" My chidren have been able to chant this since they were tiny. Covers a lot of bases.

I do something like this too, seeker.
when dd1 was about two and a half, some batty woman said to her in a shop (a propos nthing) "I hope you have been good, otherwise FC won't come!"
and dd replied, witheringly "it's only a story"

impressed at your dd HC. I was gutted when my brother told me FC didn't exist when i was 7.

agree that you cannot use fc as an analogy he was hardly responsible for the spanish inquisition was he?

[neither was Jesus Christ though]

Someone said they objected to their children being told about God. I said that I objected to my children being told about Father Christmas. To me it's not that different.

The only difference is that everyone knows FC is a big fat lie, whereas we happen to believe in God and Jesus.

Plus Jesus comes with a good message of how to live. FC's message is that if you're good you get what you want for Christmas and if you're bad you get a sack of coal.

Oh and God wasn't responsible for the Spanish Inquisition. We are talking general religion here not not picking out specific religions for you to have a go at.

Well the origins of FC are bound up in mythology and the celebration of the winter solstice in the festival of Yule (which pre-dates Christianity by several hundred years). The current version of FC is really a late 19th/ 20th century version (i.e. you only get things if you're good) and historically, gifts were left out for FC in the same way that he delivered gifts. Traditionally, the festival (and FC) was a time of thankfulness for the year past and hope for the year (and new season) coming which was reflected in the gift giving and receiving. On that basis, it seems like a rather nice message from FC.

And personally, I think conflating myths with religion in a discussion about belief is rather a concerning route to go down should people believe in a god.

yes but athiests here and elsewhere frequently conflate religion with myth. Perhaps rhubarb is just playing them at their own game?

However i think it is fair to say that much of theology does not assume everything in the Bible is 'fact'. So many of the stories in the Old Testament are so ancient that it would be impossible to know if they are true or not [not talking about obviously metaphorical stories like Adam and Eve and the Creation] So going with the idea 'The bible has much to teach us but it is hard to know if some of the very old stories really happened' works for me.

YANBU.
Some people who complain about their chldren being exposed to the "superstitions" or "myths" of religion, were actually brought up in a similar environment and eventually "grew out of it". I think they should have some faith in their own children and expect them to be able to do so too. Also, I think it is very difficult that a child born to 2 atheists/non-faith parents will become religious (let alone a fundamentalist) by going to a faith school or attending a batptist playgroup or listening to a total stranger telling him stories about Jesus. He will probably ask questions at home, of course. But then, he will be asking about everything. All you have to do is tell him they are not true. Now, you can do this in 2 ways:

1. saying "some people believe this actually happened etc and as long as they don't do any harm, that's OK"
2. saying "some lunatics believe this actually happened, poor sods, and they are dangerous and eventually they want to convert everybody or kill them".

What matters IMO is not what people believe or not, is whether people is capable of respecting other people's lives. People should be judged by what they do, not by what they believe or say they believe. Very different things. People do harm, not religions. Religions can inspire good things and bad things, depending on the receptor.

I wish I could arrange for this statement to be posted on this thread at 5 minute intervals. "I have absolutely no objection to my child being taught ABOUT religion - indeed I want him to be. What I object to is the fact that in order to participate fully in the school community he actually has to practice a religion which is not mine and which he is too young to decide whether is his or not"

People seem to be continuously saying that atheists don't want their children to be told about Christianity. I don't think ANYONE this thread has actually said that.

Seeker, if that is for me, I haven't said anywhere EVER that atheists don't want their children to be taught about religion. I KNOW they do. I may not agree with them, but don't think they are necessarily obtuse.

Also, I wasn't talking about schools, I was talking more generally about exposure to religious beliefs out of the family environment in community projects, playgroups, etc.

so, I really don't know what you are going on about.

Bonita - it wasn't directed specifically at you - but I may have misunderstood you when you said that a child wouldn't necessarily be made religions by "a total stranger telling him stories about Jesus". I don't have any objection to my children being told bible stories in the right context - and if I want to I can not take my child to overtly Christian community projects and toddler groups. I have a choice. I have NO choice in school. It irks me a bit that most of the Christians on this thread seem to find it very hard to understand why that is a problem for me.

rhubarb to be frank the fact that you believe in god and jesus doesn't make it true so we don't know that it isn't a big fat lie and some of us think it is
the ref to the spanish inquisition was just that a religious reference not a go at a particlar religion
my dh is a staunch catholic he organises the music at the mass on a sunday my ds goes to a c/e school because it is our nearest me I'm a big richard dawkins fan we can all have our beliefs but I don't want my child to grow up believing something is fact without scientific proof that it is
a belief is just that a belief it is not a fact