to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

So re the Father Christmas thing, when you explain to your child that it's all a bit of a story that some people feel the need to go along with in order to have a good Christmas, how do they react? Do they say that's OK Mummy, now you have explained I can see that what you say is true, and never give it a moment more thought? Or do they say well I don't care I believe it anyway, and/or get upset that you have disagreed with the teacher? Because that's what my dd does about Jesus, and God made the world, and heaven. And it really gets my goat. She has been more influenced by the teacher who she loves (and who I think I should endorse, as not thinking your teacher is an authority is very problematic educationally) than by her own family - and my sister is a vicar! But no of course I haven't seen the headmaster, because I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, I suspect. And you know what, that gets my goat even more.

Why not discuss it with the headteacher? I plan to see mine about the lack of a nativity play in a CofE school - methinks they are pandering too much to the atheists

My dd knows the story of St. Nicolas and she knows that some children believe in FC. She's cool with that. We've never done the FC thing so she couldn't really decide to just believe in it anyway, we'd have to go along with it too right? However I think she does want to believe in fairies, so I neither encourage nor discourage this belief. She has to explore what is true and not in her own head. It's all part of growing up.

nooka, how old is your daughter?

Seven. I wouldn't see the headteacher about it because the issue doesn't come up that often, because I work full time and visitng the school for anything is difficult, and because she has a new teacher this year anyway. Also because I suspect that objecting because the teacher is "too Christian" isn't really going to get anywhere much. Also she is otherwise an excellent teacher, and if dd heard about it she would be very upset with me. So probably a mix there of too lazy/too upsetting for dd. With ds it's all been water off a duck's back, but dd is convinced she is a Christian (although when I have suggested she might want to go to church with my mother she hasn't been at all keen, so very surface Christian I suspect).

Yes, I badger the unfortunate head on a regular basis on this and many other issues. He keeps a slot in his diary free every Friday for me....

But seriously - I realize that I can withdraw my child from assemblies and RE and things, but I don't see why he can't be a full member of the schoo community just because of something that's so unnecessary! Why on earth should there be prayers at assembly? I used to be a civil servant. I didn't gather my team around me for morning prayers before I handed out the jobs for the day!

But I don't object to Nativity plays! Of course you celebrate Christmas, and the Chinese New Year and Dwali and Eid and St Patrick's Day and Oak Apple day (whatever that it!) and ....you celebrate and have a party. Or you tell the story - stories are an important part of our collective consciencness. It's actually having to say you believe this stuff when you don't, or haven't got the life experience to have decided whether you do or not that I onject to!

Seeker: exactly. That and the way the religious always expect you to take their silly superstitions seriously.

My DS is 3 and at the moment thinks the Tellytubbies are real so I'm not too bothered on his account yet - and indeed it's my intention to take all myths and legends we're exposed to equally 'seriously' until he's old enough to work out that they're not real. Because, for one thing, that should help him steer clear of taking any one of them any more seriously than the others.

Parp.

don't blame you ruty

sorry. it is just the arrogance i object to, not the reasonable points made by many athiests on thread.

yes I understand

I'm a Catholic and our bishops have made it very clear that we are NOT expected to believe in Creationism.

although, on the other side, I can see it is a little frustrating for Christians to persist in saying "what are you making such a fuss about, why would you mind your child being taught my religion as truth or to pray to my God, it is a positive influence and I don't have a problem with it."

or even worse "well that's just the way it is, stop whinging and put up with it."

because that shows a certain arrogance or at least a very distinct lack of empathy or a failure to see the other person's point of view.

which at the very least doesn't progress us forward with mutual rspect and understanding.

(neither does using words like "superstition" or "mumbo jumbo" either - I accept that.)

Oh, EST, I don't think that you meant your last post to come across this way (or at least I hope not), but it does rather suggest that you think that Christians have a monopoly on generosity, selflessness, etc, and you know that's just not true. And I don't understand the relevance of "It can also be difficult when complete strangers take an interest in what you have to say." It's difficult if they're eavesdropping, I suppose, but in what other context would that be a bad thing?

ruty, you saying Christians are not reasonable by any chance?

the problem is neither side really sees the other's point of view - if they did then they wouldn't be on that side.
I agree with harpsi's post, and am as annoyed by people referring to other people's beliefs as crap as I am by others thinking it is ok for my child to be effectively forced to conform to the practices of a religion simply by attending a state funded institution. I am not suggesting that everyone on this thread has been as disregarding of others, but some (on both sides) definately have.

thought the sympathy couldn't last HC.

[I do understand your point though]

many aren't rhubs, just like many athiests aren't particularly.

scuse me chasingsquirrels i and a few others [eg justabout] have seen the other side of view on this thread.

I said SOME!!

sorry, I tought you were referring to the second part of the post, yes there was a very interesting discussion several thousand posts ago , I was completely out of my depth though so just read with interest.

I would not dream of saying that anybody else's faith was crap - people have a perfect right to believe anything they want to so long as it doesn't frighten the horses. But they do not have a right to impose their beliefs uninvited on other people. Particularly on people without the life experience to separate what lovely Miss X tells them about God from what she tells them about the multiplication table. I am not expecting schools to teach that there is definitely not a God. I am just expecting them not to teach that there definitely is! Schools should be places of learning and questioning, not of believing.

agree seeker absolutely.

quite so seeker
I have been thinking baout a compromise position on education in schooling that might meet the needs of both sides
which, if I can summarise them are:

a need for a spiritual element in education

versus

a need to protect children from religious indoctrination

what about an emphasis on the teachings of Jesus (without a specific link to the notion of him being the Son of God, th elink with salvation etc - that is something Christians can emphasise to their own children) and a recognition that those teachings represent a solid moral framework and form the basis of the mopral framework of this (Christian) country. one could talk about thankfulness, kindness, gratitude, respect, with no need at all to link in with one religion or any, they are just human values.

and the teaching of key Bible stories as a way of illustrating those moral issues with an explanation that some people believe these stories to be true, some don't (so Christian parents can emphasise outside of school their personal beliefs).

and of corse religious education not just about festivals and different beliefs but also about atheism/humanism as a viable alternative and also a teaching of the less positive aspects of history

e.g. this week there could be an explanation of how Guy Fawkes came to want to blow up the Houses of Parliament and what happened to him and the history of Catholic persecution in this country (to give a pertinent example)

and that would probably meet the bill in terms of giving a balanced view.

That's just reminded me, harpsi - I had such a cock-eyed view of the Reformation because of learning history at a Catholic school... I am an atheist now, but still have a sneaking resentment that lovely medieval churches and cathedrals "belong" to the C of E.