to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

Plenty of nominal members of all the main superstition brands are sensible, honourable, likeable individuals. It is my understanding that all religious texts are (conveniently) open to a variety of interpretations, so they are useful for bigots and warmongers and nutters: you kind of feel all argument has to stop when you start claiming that your imaginary friend is bigger than anyone else's imaginary friend and therefore you are right in whatever nonsense you're perpetrating.

And there's no difference, logically, between believing in christian gods and prophets, and believing in pixies and father christmas, as both the latter superstitions have their roots in older supertitions and faiths anyway. GIven that there are pantheistic religions and plenty of people who profess (anbd are sincere in) belief in Anubis, Odin and Cernunnos as well as Allah, Ganesh or Jesus, why should any of them be taken any more or less seriously by the religion-free than any others?

harpsi, my children will be told that and are told that, by other kids, by other adults etc. It seems much more acceptable for non-believers to tell us believers that it's all a crock of shite, than for us believers to tell anyone else that it's true.

It's just not pc to be religious anymore.

If I really really objected to something at school I would have a meeting with the headteacher to discuss it, bring it up at the pta etc. If that got nowhere and there were no other schools to send my kids to, then I'd home educate.

this thread is getting a bit repetitive now so forgive me if i bow out...

madamez, the point was that they are complaining of their children being told something is true when they didn't believe it was.

Double standards if they tell their kids about FC and the tooth fairy.

I respect that you do not believe and you think it's all a pile of shit. I think I am entitled to your respect that I actually do believe, misguided or not, I believe in it. I shall be bringing my children up in that faith, but I shall also be telling them about Richard Dawkins et al and shall be encouraging them to question and seek their own answers and their own truths. My faith as an adult is very different to my faith as a child as it is my experiences since that have shaped, moulded and strengthened it.

Oh and I don't believe in ghosts either.

Haven't read all this thread, but totally agree with harpsichord.

I am happy for my child to be taught about religion, but not keen on the praying business at all.

You can have them disapplied from it. I was going to do this to my dc, but wanted him to learn about religion, but you can request they are kept out of assembly or prayer.

I am a secondary school teacher, and once had to sit through an assembly by the Gideon bible people. Myself and a lot of colleagues were furious that we were expected to take part, and I found it really offensive that all the pupils were given a copy of the gideon bible

Why would you be furious if they were given copies of the Bible? Would you prefer it was a copy of Dawkins? Surely teenagers are old enough to make up their own minds?

It's a patronising stance to be offended on behalf of others.

Because of the assumption that they all wanted one. We have jews, muslims, all sorts in our school, but no one ever gets offered the Koran or whatever.

I guess they did have the opportunity to refuse them or throw them away, as teenagers they can make up their minds, but it felt like they were forcing it down their throats.
But this also takes place in the primary schools.

It may be a ptronising stance, but they were Y7's and still quite young IMO.

It felt like a catch'em young recruitment guide. I would not have been happy if my son had been part of this at all

I think that is because we live in a Christian country. I'm sure if you went to India the schoolkids there would all be offered a copy of the Koran.

It's in the culture of the majority of people. If you don't like it you can just refuse or opt out.

I don't like my kids being told all about FC, having to go up to him to get presents etc, but neither do I want them feeling left out. So I allow it whilst making sure they know he's not real and presents are not the point of Christmas. I don't make a huge fuss about it.

Thank you, and Goodnight!

Bowing out too, due to circularity.

But we should congratulate ourselves on going for so blooming long that no newcomers could actually be arsed to read the thread!

suebaroooo, seeker, justabout, emsmum, ruty, madamez, unquietdad, and everyone else - look forward to seeing you on a new thread soon. In a month or so we can all pretend we've never met and start all over again.

Yahoo!

'Scuse me - I read it!

ditto

We are on the wrong side, Rhubarb, so although we are newcomers that read the thread, we obviously don't exist. Just like God, I suppose.

To answer the OP's question - YANBU, and this thread proves it!

And my thoughtful posts were obviously written in invisible ink.

To be fair, Rhubarb and EST, you were mostly talking about church schools, which really wasn't what I'd posted about. However, I'm orf, because I don't really want to end the thread on a bad note after it had gone so well.

Rhubarb, I shouldn't think kids would get copies of the Koran in India... Pakistan, possibly.

And Sue - just wanted to say that although my ideas and yours are pretty different, I've enjoyed this thread, and the tone at least of the first 26 or so pages! Thanks all, for a really interesting and measured debate.

Rhubar, the point is that it is neither right nor appropriate for a person in a position of authority to peddle crap to kids and teach them that some myths are true and others not. Oh, and indian schoolkids being given the Koran? Wouldn't the Hindu and Sikh parents have an issue with that?
And my take on all the superstitions is that it's fine for people to do whatever they want to do in their own homes or in their own venues (temples, churches, mosques, stone circles) - as long as the whatevers do not involve unconsenting parties and do not break the general law of the land. But it's not all right to either consciously peddle crap to people who don't want it or to make the arrogant, lazy assumption that they won't object because they're not visibly signed up for anything else.

Oops! Pakistan, I stand corrected!

SueBaroo, as the thread has moved on I was making general observations and replying to Madamez, but I do agree with the point of your OP actually. I know mums who go to Church toddler groups and then complain that it's too "churchy" - don't go to a Church one then!

People will be going into catholic churches next and complaining that they're too Papist!

If you took that argument literally Madamez then we should ban all talk of Father Christmas, fairies, Halloween celebrations etc. Where would you draw the line?

And much as I respect your opinion on these matters, I don't say that Dawkins peddles crap so please have the same respect for my beliefs why don't you? Or is that all part of being an atheist?

OK, outside of education...

I think a lot of non-Christians find it difficult to cope with Christians who are providing them with some kind of service to them, eg mother & toddler group.

It can be hard for people to receive something for nothing, and is rather counter-cultural in our society. We expect to pay for what we get and are very suspicious when we are not allowed to.

It can also be difficult when complete strangers take an interest in what you have to say.

OK - one last time, then I will give up. My child being asked to pray to God at school, and being told that God made the world and Jeus died for him and that if he's good he'll go to Heaven feels EXACTLY the same to me as you discovering that your child has been asked to invoke the Mother Goddess or pray to Allah or worship Ganesh. Exactly the same. And I I feel pretty sure that you would object pretty strongly if that happened to your child. I just don't see why I have to accept the Christian thing for mine. If it was a Church school then of course I would have to accept it - that's why I didn't send my children to a Church school!

And for the record, I was delighted to accept the Baptist's cup of tea at mother and toddler group, and I shup up about the prayers and the hymn because I was accepting thier hospitality. And the poeple running the group were not in loco parentis. School teachers are.

So seeker, have you raised this point with the headteacher? Can your child opt out of assembly? Have you discussed it in the PTA?

And actually I do object to my child being told to write a list to Father Christmas, and if they've not been good he won't bring them presents. But that is just this screwed up society in which we live and I have to accept that my children are going to be told that. But so long as this is explained to them at home, it's nothing to get worked up about.

No disrespect re whole thread intended to any individual!

More an assumption that since I wouldn't probably read 825 (!) posts, then others wouldn't. You're all much more hardcore than me then!
Nevertheless, it feels like we've been here before.