to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

Sue perhaps it would be helpful if you told us exactly what is the Biblical teaching re Elders.
Because at the moment this is sounding very .. 1950s.

The trouble with using the Bible as a guidebook to life (it seems to me) is that you have to do all sorts of incredibly sensible things - like loving your neighbour and not stealing stuff but you also have to do (sorry) aome pretty bonkers things too - like not having a glass of milk with your bacon sandwich and not eating prawns and not going out when you've got your period. I just thin it's important for sensitive intelligent people like you, Sue, to question things. Why couldn't you be an Elder if you want to? Anybody who's ever seen a man trying to find a pair of socks knows that they are not n some way innately superior.......

pmsl, oh, bloody nora, it's a bit late to be wheeling out my 1 Timothys and my Titus (down boys!).

Can I do it tomorrow morning? I'm knackered this evening. [assuring that this is not a cop-out emoticon]

Also sue, Really surprised - genuinely - that you havent' yet embraced the idea that because you happen not to want to do something that is forbidden to you unjustly, doesn't mean that you don't have a responsibility to demand that the prohibition be removed on another's behalf.

Even if that 'another' only exists in theory.

seeker, ah, now that's one of the problems, you see - you're assuming that being an elder means being superior, like it's a status symbol, or a step on the church career ladder or something. The Christian view of it, imo, is nothing like that at all.

but yes, your let off for tonight, go and watch police camera action and recharge.

For Tomorrow... It Begins.

Sue not good enough.
'no darling, you really wouldn't want to vote, it's really boring - just going to the local hall and filling out a form - and actually a bit of a heavy responsibility. YOu know, I'm saving you, really, from a whole lot of trouble"

lol, I didn't mean that, either. I'll flesh it out tomorrow, I really need to get off the computer and try and sleep, I'm not having a good time with my health atm. If you see me anywhere else, tell me off, please.

oooh yes.

and very sorry to hear you're not feeling well.

And whst's wrong with Star Trek? (seeker bridles in a Les Dawsonish way)

nothing no really, nothing!

So what do we think of this testament to the capacity of babies to theologize?

"God tube" says it all really! Otherwise it just goes to show how it is possible to learn to say something without picking up on any meaning at all. I did find my nephews jumping up and down excitedly one Christmas about "Jesus' birthday!" quite sweet because they were so 100% about it, and it was a child's eye view on Christmas (although slightly nauseating too).

"I think it should be what it was when churches first set schools up - for the charitable purpose of providing an education, because Christians believe in education. Not for providing little exclusive religious clubs and promoting a specific belief."

Sue - I don't think that I'm assuming that Elders in your Church are superior - although I suppose the name does imply a bit of a hierachy. I just feel uncomfortable with any part of an organization being barred to women.

Oh, and my 6 year old ds has never seen Star Wars. Would he like it, and am I a bad mother for never having got round to getting it for him?

that's apalling northernrefugee - you should have complained.
I am feeling quite annoyed at present that the [very good] Roman Catholic school we visited will put us on the bottom of their list because ds is not baptized Catholic. So I can certainly see the argument for taking the religious factor out of schools.

We did complain- and other parents were too afraid it would compromise their children's position in the school. It made our life very difficult- we were labeled as trouble makers- and actually had decided we would move the kids already as it was all too difficult and we were't happy with other aspects- the class divide in these villages can be extraordinarily marked- and these so called Christians sometimes exacerbate it. I have to say that we had moved from inner city London to this very small community- where our kids were the darkest for miles and where we had to order a copy of the Guardian 'cos no-one else read it. It's VERY different here- and this may spark another debate- but people accept quietly things that in London would be total anathema. Isuppose for the sake of the children I had to start toning things down- and even now they say- please Mum- don't say anything- you always say things.....I think I spend alot of time biting my tongue.

oh gosh northern that's dreadful. YOu poor things. Where did you move the kids to? I mean what kind of school and how far away etc, not names..) Is it better?

i often find born again, evangelical chrisitians unbearable. not all of them, but it does seem to attract a certain kind of person.

Seeker, to respond to the most pressing query only (bcs a bit busy today)

Yes you are bad mother. Your DS would love Star Wars 4 which was the first one ever made and probably the one you remember from childhood. The Princess Leia with doughnuts one.
maybe 5th one too.
Other ones we find a bit..complex.

justa, emsmum, firsts from ... where?

Birmingham. But ages ago when a first was a first