AIBU to be miffed by preschool nursery’s approach to fees?

[CrankyFrankie]

Hello, just wondering if this is normal as I’ve never come across it before and I feel the nursery have been quite sneaky about it. I thought their monthly fees sounded high given we’ve just become eligible for 30h childcare.

I’ve finally worked it out (with no transparency/help from the manager or accounts person) that they’ve multiplied the ‘funded’ hours by the amount the gov/local authority pays them, and then just deducted that amount from their fees and billed us for the remainder.

So, for the extended 30h funding, stretched from 38w to 52w, my son who is in 2x p/w, is only eligible to claim the equivalent of 15 ‘funded’ hours per week. This leaves 6h per week for us to cover. And the bill is nearly £300 pcm (their daily rate is

[quote Babyboomtastic]@StacySoloman

Presumably the craft/food is optional for the parents (ie they could take packed lunch)?[/quote]
It’s optional in that they can find another childcare provider.

It’s very kind and generous of your childminder to subsidise you, I hope even if you aren’t prepared to voluntarily make up the difference for her you have at least told her how grateful you are.

Yep, sounds right. I get 30h funding for DD. She attends 52w 8-6 less bank holidays so 2,520 a year funding is 30x38 so we pay for 1,140 hours.

Monthly bill averages at £550 so we pay about £5.80 an hour for non funded hours.

When she was 2 the monthly bill was around £1,150 so we were paying about £5.40 an hour.

Lots of nursery 'lose out' on 30 hour funding so don't offer it unless the funding is claimed alongside a full time nursery space to make the difference up

@StacySoloman

I do understand your dilemma (I also have worked in an area where government funding is less than my expenses!), but in making it compulsory, your set up is illegal...

My childminder charges legal fees, and wouldn't dream of asking me to pay charges she's not allowed to ask for. She is also well loved and respected by both me and the children.

[quote Babyboomtastic]@StacySoloman

I do understand your dilemma (I also have worked in an area where government funding is less than my expenses!), but in making it compulsory, your set up is illegal...

My childminder charges legal fees, and wouldn't dream of asking me to pay charges she's not allowed to ask for. She is also well loved and respected by both me and the children.[/quote]
But you don’t respect her enough to pay her in full

My LA is very understanding that this is the way childcare providers operate - the other option is that providers stop offering funded places and parents lose out on any discount.

The way I see the childminder looking after my child deserves more than a £5/6 an hour.

@OverTheRainbow88 that’s great you found one - no idea how they manage!

If we did that then we’d make no money for 14 weeks of the year from all the term time only children - don’t know how that would work as a business model - do we just let the president school staff go for 14 hour weeks a year so we don’t have to pay them?

The staff need to be paid 52 weeks a year - we are in an expensive borough of London - the rent is extremely high as is the business rates!

If we took 5£ an hour for the funded children it’s nowhere near enough to keep us going we would run at a loss / have to close down.

@StacySoloman

I pay the full fees that she asks me.

I would be happy to pay for extras as that's allowed, as long as it was made clear that they were optional, the same with food.

It's not that I'm unhappy paying it, but that the law requires these extras to be optional!

I often used to pay 3x more in travel than my government provided fees, but I'd never dream of asking a client to make up the shortfall.

Obviously to survive that might mean having higher fees for younger children or finding another legal way of addressing the shortfall, and also lobbying the government for a better deal, but I think the set up needs to be legal.

Asking clients to top up hourly rates or putting optional extras in as compulsory charges isn't a legal method. The whole set up needs shake up, and the government clearly needs to find this better. It's a mess

They’re not compulsory charges as parents are more than welcome to find a different setting.
I’m very fortunate to only need to work with parents who don’t expect me to cover the difference myself.
Administering the funding is a pain in itself, and many childminders where I am don’t offer it at all.

That is insane!! In Ireland 15hrs free LITERALLY means 15hours FREE!!

It’s normal, funded hours are only applicable term time, so if it’s year round they can average it out from the yearly rate and deduct it. We also had to pay about £1.60 per hour on those funded hours to cover food. It’s frustrating.

I’d advise looking at pre schools (if childcare allows - if you need wrap around that’s more challenging) attached to schools. My oldest is in school now and my youngest will be attending the preschool soon. They had no idea what I meant when I asked about any additional fees - apparently it’s £2.50 a day if he wants a hot lunch, otherwise it’s just... free!

@StacySoloman

That still counts as compulsory...
Hey ho, it's your business, I'm not your client, and how's much you or any other setting complies with the law is upto you.

But you are breaking either the law or guidance on it, as are many settings.

DD2 was previously at a council run nursery. The 30 funded hours were spread over the full year and we only paid for the first hour and last 2 hours of the day. Then they closed.
DD2 then moved to the only other nursery in town with a space. She still takes her funded hours spread over the year. We pay a “voluntary” top up fee to enable her to go all year round. We pay more now than we paid at the council run nursery before her funded hours kicked in, and she goes for fewer hours now to try to save some money!
If we didn’t pay the voluntary top up fee she could only go during term time and her place wouldn’t be guaranteed from one term to the next.
It seems cheeky, but I understand it. The nursery is a business and they need to make money!

[quote Babyboomtastic]@StacySoloman

That still counts as compulsory...
Hey ho, it's your business, I'm not your client, and how's much you or any other setting complies with the law is upto you.

But you are breaking either the law or guidance on it, as are many settings.[/quote]
When the government guidance doesn’t work in practice, settings and local authorities have to find workarounds to ensure sufficient access to funded places.
The only answer is for the government to either pay true costs, or stop calling them “free hours”.

My nursery doesn’t do that; we just pay for any hours on top of the 30 and extra for holidays when it’s not funded

What stacysoloman does isnt illegal.

A childminder is not bound/required to accept funded hours children if they cannot afford to. In my town several simply don't accept the funding at all. Stacysoloman probably isnt following the governments intention hope for the funded hours scheme but as others have noted the rules allow various workarounds quite simply because councils need providers to accept children on funded hours and know EYFS settings will just fold otherwise, they cannot run at a loss.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

A CM is not obliged to take funded children if they can't afford to. But if they do, they cannot choose which they take/don't take depending on whether they choose to pay for extras. That is really really clear.

@CrankyFrankie have you seen this today
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55812645

DD isn't 3 yet but we asked edote she started nursery snd I know they charge at least £26 a day (probably gone up now) of funded hours (DD attends twice a week). I did visit one nursery that would have been free but we didnt like it as much. It does include nappies and meals (3 meals plus snacks) at that price, no idea if its fair or not. I dont want them out of pocket but its a lot to pay for 'free' days

[quote user1493413286]@CrankyFrankie have you seen this today
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55812645[/quote]
Thanks! I knew they were being deliberately cagey.. I think a lot of people misunderstood my original question. It was the specific method they were applying to calculating our fees that I was querying. Nothing to do with stretching the hours etc. His old nursery were up front about how they worked and that was to offer 6 funded hours per day and you paid for ‘wraparound care’ as required, which seems fair. As is charging extra for meals, etc. New place still haven’t acknowledged how they’re breaking the fees down.. Clearly common practice but still shifty AF!

We have had a similar thing.
Our nursery fees have reduced by £20 a week as a result of the 30hrs funding. It’s almost not worth claiming it!

It’s a joke really. Assuming the idea is to level up the playing field and make childcare (and lower paid jobs) accessible to less-well-off families, these places are essentially opting out of that entirely. Agree the system needs an overhaul, but dislike the idea that I’ve unwittingly sent my son to an elitist nursery. Bright Horizons for example is a highly regarded group of nurseries available in the south that offer the (stretched) hours with no strings attached as far as I can tell.

That Ombudsman ruling linked to above would literally kill off the childcare industry if enforced.

It is not possible to operate a nursery at the rate the government pays. It just isn’t.

If the government gave nurseries additional funding for rent (as they do schools) and did not force them to pay business rates (as nurseries in Scotland do not have to do), nor VAT on all resources, when they cannot charge VAT nor claim it back (as every other business in the country is able to do), things might be different.

As things stand, there is a lot of financial support available to parents for childcare fees. Not only can they claim 30 hours of childcare for 3 and 4 year olds, they can use the tax free childcare scheme or the childcare element of Universal Credit.

Nurseries are not like other small businesses. In a small shop, you would need one member of staff. In a small nursery (comparable to the shop in terms of turnover), you would probably need six members of staff. Even minimum wage for six members of staff, taking into account employer’s NI and pension contributions, accounts for most of the nursery’s turnover. Once rent has been paid (and please understand that commercial rents for D1 buildings are HUGE), there is nothing left.

I own a nursery. It’s full, and it must look very successful to the parents. But I can barely afford to draw a salary from it. I also can’t get any of the parents whose children only attend for 15 hours to pay for extras. Most of the funded children do two full days a week, and the children are given a cooked lunch. But I can’t get the parents to pay for it. I send out bills and they are simply ignored. The parents will not pay. As far as they are concerned, why should they? Children in schools get free meals, why not in nurseries?

Because the government don’t pay nurseries extra for meals, that’s why, but no one cares so long as they don’t have to pay.

Yes, I could take away the places. But I rely on the funds for the business to survive. You can’t take away everyone’s place, you’d be left with no children.

Your argument should be with the government, not the nursery. However, when push comes to shove, I suspect they would tell you that nothing in life is completely free.