Irish parents - most important leaving cert subject Honours maths??

[Pastasau]

Hi all, with the Junior cert cancelled dc is looking ahead to 5th year. She is looking to do either veterinary or engineering. We are thinking ahead to subject choices are dh is convinced honours maths is the be all & end all for the extra 25 points...
Maths is her favourite subject along with Irish (she went to a Gaelscoil for primary). She was set to do all honours for the leaving. Career guidance in her school isn't the strongest & 3rd years receive none. Dh & I are unsure how to guide her so I'm doing as much research as I can with her.
The courses she is very interested in have extremely high points, she has the innate ability but will need to be crafty all the same to get the maximum points... She loves art & is doing it this year, it did take up alot of time & apparently in lc the projects are extremely time consuming so it's probably one to drop?
With the pandemic we can't really enquire within the school & in fairness to all the school staff they're doing a smashing job..
So Irish mumsnetters (& secondary teachers) fill me in on a few "maximising points hacks" please !
Aibu - honours maths not most important lc subject
yanbu - honours maths most important

I think honours maths for what she wants to do is very important. And uni places will be highly competitive so I'd imagine any way to get extra points is handy. I'd look at hiring a career guidance Counselor when she's in 4th or 5th year. It will pay off. We had no career guidance in school, I loved art and was told there's no money in it. I'm not making money from an art based job. I wish I'd the right support and guidance in secondary school.

Would she need honours maths for engineering or vet medicine? Is she aiming for NUI/TCD and will need a modern language? There is lot of choice for engineering in ITs (some now technical universities), with lower points - work is still hard!
Qualifax is the site my kids used - a paid counsellor is possibly a good investment!
My dd1 did a high points course, nearly all women, all with honours maths except her. She reckons they mentioned it every day.

For what it's worth, the guidance teacher in our school advised doing subjects that you like as being interested is a good way to get points - combined with course requirements, of course.

If she likes maths and grasps it well then go for it. It allows her wiggle room in other subjects. I was put in honours maths but found it stressful so I decided to do ordinary level to ensure I balanced stress with points available.
Art is hard going for the points available!
Geography and social sciences are probably the best for points to be honest!

Honours maths Is challenging and you have to he careful that it doesn't become so consuming that it impacts on the other subjects, because you can easily Lose the extra 25 available from those. It is also very different from JC maths and my 3 all did well at JC but dropped Hon Maths after Christmas in first year of LC. It was a huge relief to them and the other subjects benefitted. But none did engineering or similar.
If it is just for points then think hard what impact it might have. If they are really good at maths, not just JC level but maths at LC then it is beneficial.
If you are looking at a maths based course then it might be expected, so you have to check what they are expecting.

She will find engineering very difficult if she hasn't got honours maths already.

In my day the easier points options were home ec, business studies, biology and geography. If she did English , Irish, maths and those4 would that work? Does she need a modern language aswell? I did spend almost 50% of my study time on maths to the detriment of my other subjects.

Thank you for all the replies, I really appreciate it. We're going to do our research over the lockdown... The veterinary is a childhood dream that never faded, she adores animals but I don't know how realistic it is. As a family have no experience with animals , we live in a very urban area with our two cockapoos & a rescue cat !
The engineering is more realistic as she is naturally logically minded, played lego for hours with her younger siblings up until last year & has a natural flair for maths.
Appreciate all the tips for maximising the points, she's very determined for next year & wants to hit the ground running. She will miss the art but realistically she wouldn't have the time to dedicate to it. Yes Geography is one she wants to keep & she's doing Spanish as her modern language. She should do very well in Irish, hopefully attending the Gaelscoil for primary will stand to her.

Would you consider one of the overseas courses for Vet Med as a back up? Apparently there are more Irish vet students studying in Eastern Europe than in Ireland . All taught in English.

Please pay for a good private career guidance counsellor before she picks her subjects. Also consider seriously transition year and getting a lot of work experience including with a vet and engineer

• or arrange your own over the summer. Honours maths would be very important for engineering, but there are other options like computer science/ architecture that might suit her - and honours math is important for those. It does take a good amount of study time but she can drop to pass maths in the final few months if it really gets bad (pass is a lot of the honours junior cert curriculum) start with honours. One of my biggest regrets is not going to a private careers advisor, we didn't have one in my school, and I would have taken a very different path. Regarding art - she can continue it as a hobby also, there are some brilliant studios around the country that do young adult classes.

Thanks so much everyone, I will definitely get her a private guidance. That's very interesting regarding the veterinary in Eastern Europe. When we are out of lockdown she is thinking of setting up a little dog walking venture in our estate partly for fitness & for getting more animal experience, she said she will use the money earned for course fees (which I'll believe when pigs fly!)
The problem with transition year is that dd is one of the eldest already in her year so she'll be 19 sitting the leaving, she started school at 5 years 7 months, the Gaelscoil she attended was so oversubscribed all those years ago that we held off sending her until the following year. In saying that it has really stood to her but pretty much rules out transition year unfortunately..

Has she looked into architecture? My youngest did architecture, she has honours maths but I don't think honours was a requirement. She works in an engineering company, and has an interest in the wildlife and environmental side.
My ds is an accountant, he didn't do honours maths.

No she hasn't considered architecture but that is something she could definitely look into. The subject choices are just mind boggling with all the different combinations & trying to maximise the points. Hopefully we'll get to meet a good guidence councillor face rí face in the spring & they can go through all the pros & cons with her. Thank God for mumsnet x

Since she has a flair for Maths and it gets her 25 extra points and is needed for engineering she nearly has to do that. Does her school do Applied Maths? That could be one to think of which would play to her strengths. Then if she wants to keep Veterinary open as an option she needs to check what subjects they require, if any and what subjects they do in first year as it's always an advantage not to be taking up something new then.
A lot of people doing veterinary now look to specialise in small animals as it's more of a time friendly job. The alternative might be going out in the middle of the night in the Winter to a cow having difficulty calving etc on farms.
She has massive opportunities ahead of her .
There are so many engineering courses everywhere so she won't have any difficulty finding one when the time comes.
Maybe she could do a week with a vet in TY to see what really happens. Often people have a romantic view of Veterinary so it would be good to see the reality which she might love.

If she’s got an inclination and talent for maths, she should do the honours. She could always drop to ordinary if it becomes a struggle (which is far easier than the other way around!) but it sounds like she’s interested and good at it.

Art at higher level is actually one of the tougher subjects to get an A in - or at least it was in the 2000s when I did it! There were lots of components to it, including an art history written paper, coursework/project and “live” exams like life drawing that can go either way on the day! But it is really stimulating if you are naturally inclined and I’d always recommend doing what motivates you rather than forcing yourself to do, eg business studies, because people say it is easier for the points. Might not be that easy to motivate her to study if she hates it or finds it extremely boring!

With veterinary, I would’ve thought Biology was one she’d want to have, too.

According to my husband, who did honours maths, honours physics and honours applied maths there is alot of over lap in content (or at least there was when we did the leaving cert 15 years ago). That might be an option to make it easier on her.

The Engineering Society Ireland have a part on their website about the different fields of engineering and the best way of entering them. They also run maths grinds classes for Leaving Cert students in the half terms, I think they are free over oversubscribed.
Maybe she could look at that and see if any of the careers inspire her?

She will need to check what subjects are mandatory for her subject. I would expect those 2 courses mentioned to be mandatory hons maths.
Most colleges are running virtual open days so might be worth chatting to some to get a feel for the courses. Engineering is so broad, she might be more into civil than mechanical. NUIG have a general engineering course than you can specialise after first year. They also do medical engineering too.

I’d caution against choosing “easy” subjects for points because it’s not quite that straightforward.

Some of the “points subjects” have a lot of rote learning (or did back in my day and maybe that’s changed) and I struggled to just learn and regurgitate facts. I performed far better on subjects that required a bit more analysis or a creative approach.

Sometimes the honours courses are more interesting and engaging than the lower levels - maths definitely is, though it had been dumbed down a bit when I was doing it and some of the connections between different aspects were lost. But I was a student who needs to grasp the big picture and I would have struggled to get to grips with lower maths even if it’s ostensibly easier.

Art is consuming if you work on building a portfolio but it’s very manageable otherwise and can be a great change of pace from the academics.

There’s a lot of exam craft that wasn’t taught in my school anyway, and the best advice I’d have for anyone is learn how the papers are marked and give the examiner what they are looking for. You need to hone exam craft over the next two years.

Quick examples are if you have 30 mins to write an essay, and it’s optimally marked based on 6 paragraphs of 10 facts with an intro and conclusion then write every essay either
• in 30 mins aiming to get better marks each time, or
• in the 6 paragraph format aiming to get quicker each time.

Or in maths learn to write the solution in a way that gets every possible mark (by showing each step clearly) rather than doing it in your head, and making one tiny mistake and losing all the marks.

Try and figure out with her what sort of learner she is. Some people do better with overlapping subjects like maths/applied maths/physics and some benefit from a wider range.

And not to be negative, but she’s young and they do change their minds, so allow for that too.

A lot of universities require a modern language.

@Pastasau

Thanks so much everyone, I will definitely get her a private guidance. That's very interesting regarding the veterinary in Eastern Europe. When we are out of lockdown she is thinking of setting up a little dog walking venture in our estate partly for fitness & for getting more animal experience, she said she will use the money earned for course fees (which I'll believe when pigs fly!) The problem with transition year is that dd is one of the eldest already in her year so she'll be 19 sitting the leaving, she started school at 5 years 7 months, the Gaelscoil she attended was so oversubscribed all those years ago that we held off sending her until the following year. In saying that it has really stood to her but pretty much rules out transition year unfortunately..

Why on earth would her age rule out transition year? Two of my children were well over 19 sitting the leaving cert. It is a bonus rather than a drawback. There are many many 19 year olds sitting lc each year. You are doing her a disservice with this attitude.

Why on earth would her age rule out transition year? Two of my children were well over 19 sitting the leaving cert. It is a bonus rather than a drawback. There are many many 19 year olds sitting lc each year. You are doing her a disservice with this attitude.

Totally agree my daughter was 19 sitting the LC and my son (who is currently in TY) will also be 19, not an issue at all

But yeah on topic, if she can pass Honours Maths she's definitely better off doing it for the 25 extra points.

as far as other subjects go, i don't think there's crafty hacks other than she needs to pick the subjects she's best at and most interested in

If she plans to do engineering as a degree she will definitely need Honours Maths. Most medics and vet meds in England tend to do Maths A level too so it would stand to reason that Honours Maths would be preferable for vet med too. Does she hope to study for a degree in the UK at all or just in Ireland?

I'd actually encourage transition year, just to try and get the pandemic chaos out of the way.

Do look at courses in the it sector, places like the maritime college in Cork have courses outside the usual, check out things like environmental engineering too, or the BEES course in Ucc.
There are almost too many to choose from!

I am an Engineer. Honours maths is vital (min H4.) You also need a min H6 in another science ....etc. To do Veterinary medicine in Ireland you need a H5 in Chemistry. You need to look at the university requirements.