ask if the rise in Covid is being fuelled by the working poor?

[Wantubackforgood]

It seems to me that there must be millions of low paid workers who are not in receipt of benefits (to trigger the £500 one off payment) and are working in jobs where only SSP is paid during self isolation/sickness.

They simply cannot afford to take the cut in income so carry on going to work .

I don't blame the poor.I want proper support put in place to protect these workers .
There are millions of people still on furlough yet the low paid hard working people in this country are expected to take time off on ssp and are bullied into going to work by bosses.
The media don't seem to have picked up on this and the spread is being blamed on rich footballers etc...who have chosen to break the rules .
My point is ,there are hard working ordinary people whose choice to do the right thing has been taken away by economic circumstances .

I think you've phrased it rather goadily because it sounds like you're blaming the working poor.

To put it another way, you could say that people in more deprived circumstances are bearing the brunt of covid's impact, and are also among the least able to be able to mitigate its effects.

Data shows that people on lower incomes are three times less likely to isolate if they get symptoms, or a positive test.

But this isn't because they are 'stupid', as some posters seem to be implying. (Or yelling while foaming at the mouth, in some instances.)

It's because their economic and social support circumstances are so reduced, or even non-existent, compared to wealthier people that they simply have no option but to carry on.

The data also shows that intention and motivation to follow guidelines are laws remains universally high across all socio-economic groups.

So basically, lower-income and deprived people want to do the right thing as much as everyone else. They just can't afford to, in many cases.

Quoted from a recent BMJ blog article which covers all this:

Unlike hand-hygiene and social distancing, self-isolation requires support from others to be possible. This includes support from others in the community, in the form of shopping most obviously. It also requires material support in the form of an income and sufficient space. The lower adherence rates for self-isolation therefore suggest that the issues may have less to do with psychological motivation than with the availability of resources. This accords with data from the first “lockdown” showing that the most deprived were six times more likely to leave home and three times less likely to self-isolate, but that they had the same motivation as the most affluent to do so. Non-adherence was a matter of practicality, not psychology.

Note to OP I've read your recent update and I appreciate that you're not trying to be goady, and you're making the same point as I am. I think your thread title especially 'fuelled by' -- somewhat suggested blame.

But you're not blaming, so apologies if I've suggested that you are.

Some other posters are blaming, however.

@catsmother

Of course you’re absolutely right, living conditions are a huge factor in addition to working conditions.

But this reasoned discussion is no fun. It’s a lot more fun to sit at home working in my comfortable house ordering my shopping online, self-righteously patting myself on the back for staying at home, and castigating anyone who dares leave their home - it makes me feel really good about myself - so let’s do that instead.

@Emeraldshamrock

It is part of it. I know of family members of a positive case still going to work rather than go through the faff of testing and loss of earnings. I'm sure many are in this situation. DP is working with the public if he gets ill it will have a knock on financial affect but he can't wfh.

Totally agree We are in the exact same situation

This pandemic has really highlighted the divide in society with the lowest paid /most critical workers being disproportionately exposed to risk /financially penalised.

My work is making us all (150+) staff go into the office when we can work from home.

I cannot afford not to work, so I go in as do the rest of us.

Blame the bosses who make our lives hell if we take time off (there are people on a final warning where I work due to them having to isolate. I don't think they're supposed to be allowed to do that but people don't say anything because they need the money).

These two posters say it all. There’s always an imbalance of power between employer and employee. But where the employee is low paid and badly needs the job, that imbalance of power is massively exacerbated. The government should be sending out a much sterner message to employers.

@cabbageking

More likely to be foolish, irresponsible people than any one class or type I would imagine?

This....A friend who is isolating rurally in his house says his clients in London {Wealthy , middle class} are still dinner partying and socialising, as is a man in his 70's I know who travels to see friends and has never been careful, calling me ''Paranoid''.

Instead of blaming the poor... we should turn our gaze to the wealthy who are travelling during this pandemic and seeding the virus to the farthest corners of the world.

I know lots of people who have jetted off to the Caribbean over Christmas and had 3 or 4 holidays last year. There is a councillor in the news over the past few days who was putting up posts to her constituents telling them to stay home, from her sun bed in the Seychelles or somewhere like that.

If you remember, the first people to bring it into the UK were skiers coming back from their trips. One super spreader went Singapore - Skiing - UK from what I seem to remember. The first people I knew to get the virus were all skiers returning from their trip in Feb half them last year. All their families had to isolate.

YABU. The poor may be spreading it, but they are the victims in this pandemic, not the cause of it.

Personal responsibility for your own and other people's safety is paramount no excuses no exceptions the virus will not go round you it will do it's damdest to hit you
Take care it's your responsibility

MN is indeed a fascinating place sometimes. Countless threads are full of insistence that the rules have to apply to everyone and that many who claim otherwise are just selfish b**tards, until it involves some "preferred group" - the poor, BAME communities, those desperate to see a relative, whoever - when "no, look over there" instantly descends

With Covid so widespread the spead's never going to be down to just one sector, but sometimes you really wouldn't think so

Completely missing the point Portia. Some people aren’t able to push their risk onto others. Some people have to go out to work to keep the country going and serve the wants of the smug ‘I’m sitting at home to save lives’ crew. Many of these people are the low paid.

Wow, we are now blaming according to social class. I know of many wealthy people still working and going to offices. Many who has not travel since last March. Of course some are entitled as there are benefit cheaters.

These posts are just to create more division. A lot of wealthy people are donating and trying to help aside from the taxes. Are working class people are being help by the government if they get Covid? I thought this was the case.

Who said that it is only the low paid who only get SSP when off sick? I know of many employers who only pay SSP. And is there a significant difference between the working poor and the non-working poor?

Disadvantage, in all forms, has been shown to be a significant contributor to every form of poor health - coronavirus has not changed that. We should be more concerned that in the 21st century, a wealthy country has poor people at all, not that their going to work might quite dreadfully be forcing up virus infections.

I grew up in a shit poor family in the late 50's and 60's, and in a poor community that had nothing but low pay. But nobody needed food banks. It was supposed to be better now. The pandemic has only put the icing on the cake of poverty in the UK, and we should be ashamed that we have let the country come to this in 2021.

One of them. I know many people who have worked through having suspected covid as they cant afford to be on ssp or some employers not paying anything during isolation unless they have a positive test.

And it's not just low paid that get ssp. Many private companies with people on decent wages just pay ssp and people cant afford to live on that

I to be honest do not know of many countries without food banks. Even before Covid.

Germany being one:

www.dw.com/en/germanys-food-pantries-struggle-to-meet-rising-demand/a-37148492

Blaming the "poor" is a bit harsh? I know lots of people on above average salaries who would be considered to be "middle class" who can't afford to not work or take unpaid leave or SSP? Universal credit is crap If you have a mortgage - there basically isn't any.

The travelling jet setters are part of it too. There is no choice with work there is with travel.

There is a divide in terms of impact.
People on lower incomes are more likely to be exposed to the virus, and are more likely to loose income if they do have to isolate.
They:

• Are more likely to work outside the home
• Are more likely to rely on public transport
• Are less likely to receive full pay if they have to isolate. Sometimes not even receiving sick pay.
• Are more likely to live in crowded housing
• Less likely to be able to afford to buy in the quantities needed for internet shopping and so have to visit supermarkets.

If you don't qualify for benefits but will be out of pocket for isolating you can understand why people might be reluctant to isolate.

If you do have to isolate, government advice is to use a separate bathroom and bedroom if you can. Great if you have a spare room and en-suite(s), not so great if you all share a bathroom and don't have a spare room.

The thing is, people don't have a choice about this.

When the government looked at how to support businesses, enabling them to furlough workers, they didn't consider how to support people who need to isolate. How unfair is it that the people forced to work hard through the pandemic get fuck all when they have to isolate while others get paid to stay home and bake sourdough.

The greater divider is are you able/allowed to WFH. If yes isolation can be done on full pay, if not it can't and poor or rich people will be tempted not to do it properly.
No blame there. I'm just saying that people will follow the guidance mostly based on how much it impacts them.

MN is indeed a fascinating place sometimes. Countless threads are full of insistence that the rules have to apply to everyone and that many who claim otherwise are just selfish btards, until it involves some "preferred group" - the poor, BAME communities, those desperate to see a relative, whoever - when "no, look over there" instantly descends

But MN isn’t a hive mind - it has around 7 million unique visitors a month I believe. I doubt the same people are saying contradictory things. You have the little hitlers who just think everyone should ‘Stay The Fuck At Home - simples’, and you have the people who are capable of recognising social nuances in the situation.

@ivfbeenbusy

Blaming the "poor" is a bit harsh? I know lots of people on above average salaries who would be considered to be "middle class" who can't afford to not work or take unpaid leave or SSP? Universal credit is crap If you have a mortgage - there basically isn't any.

But being unable to take the financial hit of a couple of weeks off work IS poverty to me. People might not like being considered poor, but that doesn't alter the facts.

Say you need £2000/month to securely cover all bills for a household - £250 per working adult take home per week.

So for each week of wage loss you need £250 - to me, not having £1000 in the bank to cover 4 week's loss would leave me feeling extremely precarious. Yet huge swathes of people live in those limits all the time.

It IS a form of poverty, and I think the posters twisting themselves in knots to deny that poverty and financial insecurity are rife in this country are part of the problem. Denying it exists and failing to address it is a part of the fingers in ears denial behind almost every societal ill.

You have the little hitlers who just think everyone should ‘Stay The Fuck At Home - simples’, and you have the people who are capable of recognising social nuances in the situation

Absolutely, yes, but I can't quite agree about the contradictory posts; it's not for me (or anyone but HQ) to police these threads, but they crop up all the time

A PP mentioned about folk "being unable to afford to live on SSP" and that's true, but I also know too many who are furloughed on 80% or even topped up to their full wage, and still some carry on working on the side to increase their (admittedly modest) income

The point, surely, is that it either applies to "everyone" or it doesn't - and as many have said yet more divisions really don't help, even if they're a useful distraction for politicians