To think there is a bit of an old boy's network?

[malificent7]

Or at least even a boy's network?
Whilst training in hospital the male colleagues were all desperate for the male trainees to apply for jobs as rhey would have somebloke mates to make lad jokes with.
I don't for a minute think that this has any bearing on me but I did feel as an older woman i was not as favoured . I do like banter btw but they just wanted lad mates.
It just made me feel a bit overlooked.

Exactly the same in certain parts of the police service.

Yep, same in my industry. It was always thus.

Yes. And the men in it do not see it. Which is why I have no qualms about looking out for and supporting women in various situations. That said, is also support any one I sensed was struggling in any way, so I'm not particularly woman focussed.

I just dont get why as a woman if I try and engage in 'banter' which i think I am ok at due to a quick wit, it is not the same as if 'the lads' engage in it.

Yes, same in my industry too sadly.

There is an element of 'banter' being sex based- that certain jokes may be less acceptable among women, and may get men into trouble. They may have to be more careful about their language.

I have some sympathy with that actually, although actually workplace banter should be safe for everybody anyway. I think the next generation will see less of an impact there, to be honest.

Or if they start talking about war and I chip in with some knowledge about Agincourt/ Dunkirk or such like, their eyes glaze over or they try to out manouvre me with their 'superior' knowledge.

Yes, without a doubt. Most medical specialities are.

I would say women outnumber men in hospital now though ...including doctors although surgeons seem to be weighted towards men.

"Or if they start talking about war and I chip in with some knowledge about Agincourt/ Dunkirk or such like, their eyes glaze over"

If this is what passes for banter in your workplace you've got bigger issues

I think in traditional professions which still tend to be very white it’s probably the case, yes. It wouldn’t work in newer settings - many of my colleagues are foreign-born and / or BAME and so by definition can’t be part of an “old boys network.”

My male colleagues seem to get on equally well with women as with men in the workplace. I can honestly say I’ve never particularly thought about the sex of who I was talking to or working with and the there’s definitely no “banter” designed to be exclusionary. Though we’re pretty hot on equality and diversity generally, so I expect it would go down like a lead balloon if anyone tried.

@malificent7

Or if they start talking about war and I chip in with some knowledge about Agincourt/ Dunkirk or such like, their eyes glaze over or they try to out manouvre me with their 'superior' knowledge.

And christ don't they drone on with it, and it's so obvious they think they're so impressive and you're so in awe of their extensive knowledge of who-the-fuck-cares. It's just embarrassing when they don't even know what the fuck they're talking about. If a woman went about like that in an office she'd be shunned.

The war stuff isn't banter...it's serious discussion don't you know.

Absolutely! In the industry I used to work in we had agents in multiple places across the world. All agents were men and all travelling staff were men. I remember my managers saying it was initially a pain in the arse that one of the agents had employed a woman, as she had to tag along on their night out. "Fortunately" for them it turned out she was gay, so loved the brothels and strip clubs

I used to teach and once worked for a head who only employed two categories of staff: 1) bloke mates who would go golfing with him and 2) young, attractive females. You can guess how the workplace 'banter' went. It was blatant and gross. Occasionally someone got in by fluke who didn't belong to one of these categories and was gone within a year. Awful to work in this sort of environment.

I've generally found that male dominated and female dominated workplaces function a little differently, and that adding a member of the other sex to a group that is otherwise single sex can change the dynamic. Sometimes for god and sometimes for ill.

Also, when you have a workplace that skews one way, a lone or small number of the other sex often are happy to beef up their numbers a bit.

I'm not sure I can find fault in men or women enjoying the company of men or women, though I do not particularly feel that way myself. And no, it does not always work to suddenly insert a member of the opposite sex and have it stay the same, whatever the reasons are for that. Obviously it's not something that one ought to make hiring decisions based on, and having been left out of a work social occasion as the only female myself, I know it can be upsetting, so people need to be careful about that sort of thing. But enjoying a certain male or female based dynamic isn't in itself wrong.

I work in a fairly traditionally white male occupation and honestly never heard male colleagues talking about war.

It's just chat about ordinary stuff in our office - politics/current affairs, travel, tv/films etc. We are all quite geeky so theres maybe a higher than average component of board game chat from both sexes.

I think maybe you might work with a lot of prats who are not representative of men in general.

Yes there absolutely is, in any industry. Even at my place of study I will be ignored/overlooked in favour of men. That is why I focus purely on helping out women around me, and sabotage men wherever possible

Let's see- Old Etonians Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson have just been joined in cabinet by Kwasi Kwarteng, and guess where he went to school- yes Eton.

And whilst in some places the recruitment process has become more formalised and documented, it still goes on I am sure.

In other news, bears shit in woods

@inquietant

In other news, bears shit in woods

Yes, not exactly a revalatory opinion to hold, I think we can file this under stuff everyone knows and has always been the case

Yes. And the men in it do not see it.

This x infinity. Even nice ones.
And if you challenge it you get the side eye or confused face. It's quite wearing.

But ever it was and I don't see it changing any time soon,even in these 'enlightened' times.
And my workplace would consider itself to be extremely hot on equality issues.

I remember when I entered the workforce one and a half decades ago, I genuinely thought the concept of an old boys' network was outdated, dead in the water, and that it was possible to succeed purely by being damn good at what you did. How wrong I was! It's demoralising, it's way more widespread than you could think - even in companies that talk a good talk about diversity and inclusion - and it takes so many subtle forms.

It also works against working-class, non-white and LGBT people - women especially - unless they can play the game and be one of the boys in some way.

Sadly it also replicates itself in old girls' networks. I've heard about corporate women's groups that just end up comprising a load of former public schoolgirls who aren't short of privilege to start with - and excluding women who don't fit THEIR standards.

@ComtesseDeSpair

I think in traditional professions which still tend to be very white it’s probably the case, yes. It wouldn’t work in newer settings - many of my colleagues are foreign-born and / or BAME and so by definition can’t be part of an “old boys network.”

My male colleagues seem to get on equally well with women as with men in the workplace. I can honestly say I’ve never particularly thought about the sex of who I was talking to or working with and the there’s definitely no “banter” designed to be exclusionary. Though we’re pretty hot on equality and diversity generally, so I expect it would go down like a lead balloon if anyone tried.

BAME and foreign born males don't seek out other men for banter and frkendship like white men do?

Everyday's a school day

With your dismissive attitudes towards men, it is difficult to see women being more inclusive.