New lockdown- do I pay cleaner?

[Bizawit]

I’ve had my cleaner since the summer. Best cleaner I’ve ever had, and she really makes a difference to my well-being. Although it is still allowed in the rules, she
texted me this evening saying that she wouldn’t be coming for the next few weeks because she doesn’t feel safe using public transport and mixing in different households etc, and with schools closed she has her children at home (her youngest is 14 so not small children).

The question is do I need to continue to pay her for the weeks she doesn’t come? I’m thinking that she might be expecting me to offer, and she is such a good cleaner I don’t want to lose her. Plus she’s a lovely person and I don’t want to be an arsehole/ put her in a difficult spot. On the other hand it is her choice not to come to work, and it is a fair amount of money for a service I’m not receiving. My DP says there’s no need to pay her and I shouldn’t , but I’m not sure he is right. So:

YABU - no need to pay the cleaner during lockdown.

YANBU - yes you should pay the cleaner.

If you’ve kept all your income, and are savings on commute/ lunch etc then pay. If you’ve lost out then see if you can afford.

@Sexnotgender

We’re not paying ours. She’s SE and claimed furlough last time and will do the same again this time.

The SEISS have stricter eligibility criteria. Many self employed who claimed the previous grant(s) do not qualify to claim.

Could you or your husband offer to give her a lift? That would mean public transport wasn't necessary and would cut the time she was out of her house.. You could also offer different or reduced hours, perhaps an evening shift to suit her childcare needs better.

You could offer to pay a small sum weekly and a lump sum when she returns. That would act as a retainer. Realistically, we could be looking at March or nearer Easter before schools return. Be aware of the possible time off involved here.

No I’m not paying mine. It’s her choice. My DH is SE and if he decides not to work his clients won’t pay him. It’s not cleaning but still a ‘service’ IYSWIM.

Dont pay her. See how you feel when she's working for someone else after lockdown.

@HerMammy

I don’t imagine it’s a huge sum, pay the woman and be decent. There’s been little help for self employed ppl, Immsure she’ll appreciate it. Some mean tight fisted ppl on here.

There’s been pretty much the same help for self-employed (I am one!) as PAYE. We got 80% of 3 months, then 70% of 3 months, then 80% for the 3rd grant. There is a 4th grant but I don’t know when that is kicking in.

It’s not about been mean and tight fisted. The cleaner is entitled to claim as much as any other self-employed people. Where does it end? Pay the window cleaner not to clean the windows? Pay the gardener not to garden? Pay me not to teach their children to play our sport?

The SEISS have stricter eligibility criteria. Many self employed who claimed the previous grant(s) do not qualify to claim

You are correct. I am unable to work as the job I do involves a premises that is not allowed to open. Therefore I physically cannot do my job. Cleaners are allowed to clean, therefore if they CHOOSE not to come then they are risking their eligibility for the SEISS. If they have to shield or self-isolate or clients cancel them (for covid reasons) then they can still claim.

Typically, cleaners are self employed and you are their client, not their employer.

That said, I payed our cleaner not show up during the first lockdown, bony sure what I’ll do this time.

I offered my cleaner last time, she declined and claimed back her SE income from the government scheme.

If she can come ans is choosing to cease her service then Imo she forfeits the income.

I get on very well with my cleaner. That said, if she decides not to come, I wouldn't pay her (unless she had a vulnerable family member) nor would she expect me to.

During the March lockdown, I paid her the full rate for a month and offered to pay her beyond the first month but she said she didn't want me to. She had half as a Christmas present and paid the other half back later in the year by not being paid for a couple of weeks. I said it wasn't necessary but she insisted.

So I wouldn't offer to pay her in the circumstances you've described as she is allowed to come under the lockdown rules but is choosing not to (appreciate she may have her reasons).

During the first lockdown I paid my cleaner because she wasn't allowed to work. But she moved 200 miles away to live with her boyfriend's parents and even when cleaners were allowed to return to work said she didn't feel comfortable doing so at first. I continued to pay her in full for another month. She returned to work for just 4 weeks before taking a holiday and then not returning from it as she had decided to move home.

I felt pretty taken advantage of.

This time cleaners specifically ARE allowed to work. My new cleaner is 21 yrs old, had Covid in October herself. I have assumed she will be working but if not I won't be paying her as it is her choice.

This situation is not the same as March.

I paid my cleaner in March, and she didn’t return- so much for loyalty.
Clearers are allowed and as she’s choosing not to work I wouldn’t pay her (and based on our last experience). I would also be hoping to find another cleaner and wouldn’t want to pay twice!

You might be wise to pay a retainer, if you can afford it. However, you are not obliged to pay her anything if you do not want to or are losing income yourself. I am self employed and get no money at all except for actual work I do. I would not pay for a service provider who was not providing services, unless it was for a brief period of time (one month max) and I was particularly keen to make sure I could employ them again.

I think that cleaners arouse a lot of guilt-associated/class-linked anxiety among a lot of Mumsnetters, leading to overcompensation in the form of demands that other posters pay cleaners for ever for not working. I do a white-collar job as a self employed person, so I'm sure none of my clients would feel all guilt-ridden about not paying me for work I don't do.

When you choose to work as a self-employed person, the ups and downs of work availability are something you have to factor in. There are many other compensating advantages of being self-employed---flexibility, cutting out the middleperson, opportunities to profit from self-marketing and so on.

There is a lot of nonsense talked about this.

I am self-employed although not a cleaner - and I knew the deal when I started working on that basis. No sick pay. No holiday pay. That is the downside of being self-employed. If I don't work, I don't get paid.

I would not expect to be paid for a service which I am not providing. Don't pay her, especially given that she has decided she's not coming.

I wouldnt pay her as shes choosing not to come and where will it end? You could pay out and then she takes another job. Too risky. It might be different if I had known her for years.

Maybe she just wants to leave?

We are paying our cleaner and will continue to do so, but have asked her not to come back until everything is more settled. We are fortunate that we can afford to do this, and she was v grateful last time. I trust her to return in due course, as she has cleaned for us for over 8 years. I might feel differently if she was a new cleaner

We're paying our cleaner not to come because there are people in the household who are CV. However, it's our choice and a cleaner who has worked for us for years. We did the same last lockdown and see did a deep clean of the house when she was allowed back (her choice).

I probably wouldn't with a new cleaner - if she leaves you will be in the same boat as you were a few months ago so you know you're likely to be able to find someone.

I paid my cleaner fully in first lockdown as I didn't want her to come and the rules were unclear. If she decides not to come this time I will definitely not pay her fully as I do still want her to come, but will probably pay 20% and let her claim the rest. FWIW we have recently self isolated and she received 2 weeks full pay for no work.

@Dogand2boys

My sister is a cleaner and I’d happy to still go to work. However clients have been texting and canceling left right and centre. Nine of them offering to pay. She has had most of them for years. She has totally panicking as I’ll have no money coming in )don’t think she can claim the next grant till mid feb so in the meantime she has nothing) Her clients are all rich. Bunch of arseholes.

Nope, they’re not arseholes. She chose to be self employed knowing the risks. A huge risk is that the work might not always be there, and if you don’t work, you shouldn’t be paid.

@aebj nowhere does the guidence say that only essential workers can travel for work. It just says that if you cant work from home then you can travel. A cleaner cant clean someones house from her own...

I think this is one of those Mumsnet anomalies. I don't believe in real life as many people paid their cleaners for so long during lockdown last time. I just don't know how people can afford to pay for something they're not getting.

I will be OK with my cleaner coming, we will keep well out of her way when she is here. But if she chooses not to then I'm not paying her. But I pay £15 / hour (cash) which I think is quite a lot for round here and I'm generous with Christmas gifts. I don't think I'm a bad employer.

My cleaner is continuing to come (own car) . However we have instituted a system whereby she cleans upstairs while i work downstairs and vice versa. Im self employed and no one pays me
if I dont provide a service. So I would not pay someone for not providing me with a service. I dont see any grounds for debate. Whether they can claim it from the government is not my affair.