To think people need to stop comparing the UK and New Zealand?

[RaspberryCoulis]

We have a population of 66.5 million, they have 4.9 million.

We have an area of 240,000 sq km, they have 270,000 sq km. (So less than 10% of the population in a bigger area).

Their biggest city has 1.5 million people. London has 9 million people. Their next biggest city, Christchurch, is smaller than Birmingham, Glasgow, Bristol, Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Edinburgh and Leicester.

And they're 2000 miles from their nearest big neighbour. (Australia). We're joined onto one country (Ireland) and 2000 miles from London takes in all of Western Europe, Iceland, a good chunk of Eastern Europe and a bit of North Africa.

So can we stop with the silly comparisons now?

*Leah Windsor, of Memphis University, who led the study, said a country’s cultural values were a far better predictor of how it would fare in a pandemic...

The study found societies that were more egalitarian, more collectivist and more indulgent — a term that factors in things such as having better work-life balance and a happier outlook — tended to have fewer deaths per capita...

The researchers concluded that mediocre women leaders, and very good male ones, have largely been ignored.*

One thing that is undeniable is that the countries with the best record of dealing with COVID have all had women leaders.

Like Scot Morrison?

I think you meant female leaders all have good covid records, not that all good covid records have female leaders.

There’s a correlation but not causality. Could be many factors that result in both a female leader and a good covid record. I’d like to muse that having a female leader is a result of the country being more progressive generally; a quality which might also have helped over the last year.

I would more like to examine our response and results as compared to Germany. They have had a very scary spike in cases recently but still even now: population 83 million, covid deaths 35,100. UK population 66 million, covid deaths 74,500.

Way more interesting than comparing UK and New Zealand.

New Zealand’s context is clearly very different to ours. Taiwan is a sensible comparator though. They are further from their closest neighbours than us but more than twice as densely populated. Similarly to the U.K., people live mostly in bigger cities, and at 7million the greater Taipei area is a significant size, if still a bit smaller than London. Taichung and Kaohsiung (the second and third largest cities) are both a bit bigger than Manchester.
I think people make the New Zealand comparison because they are another Anglophone nation. If you’re going to make a comparison I think Taiwan is a much better one though.

Or indeed Taiwan or Japan. But Germany has a similar climate to us and is just nearer, so will probably be sharing more of the same travellers.

I think NZ are doing well because an adult is in charge unlike the here in the UK

I am curious by the Germany death rate. I hope smart people are looking into this somewhere.

The climate point is a valid one. Taiwan is subtropical and I think the southern coast may be tropical. It’s hot and humid.

Abso fucking lutely. In NZ there is little council housing (which is short term anyway), houses are bloody expensive, healthcare for most is not free, wages are not high but the cost of living is high, Education is very poor and in the world stage NZ is lot a player economically.

It's not the socialist paradise/success story many think it is.

I bet your fucking pardon, there is council housing, in about as short supply as over here, and not short-term, we continue to have arguments about whether you can bloody inherit the lease, houses are bloody expensive in some parts, about what it's like here, healthcare is free for those who can least afford it, otherwise, yes you're expected to contibute, education is good, but we're honest when we do the PISA scorses, and we don't expect to be a world player - we're a pimple on the arsehole of the world!

I do think the NZ comparison is partially unfair but I do think if compulsory quarantine on arrival in a hotel at the travellers personal cost was implemented, you’d soon filter out a lot more of the casual travellers.

There’s a cultural difference too - NZ largely sees itself as ‘one team’ and there’s more rule following. This is similar to countries like Japan, Singapore and Taiwan. There’s more emphasis on individual rights than responsibilities in some countries, which I think is demonstrated by the idiots you’ll see with a mask tucked under their chin (“Look at me, I’m a rebel”).

No countries approach is perfect, and you can’t deny that NZ did benefit from (being able to) close/closing their borders.

I lived there and while there was council housing it wasn't expected or considered a basic human right. Which I think is right. I have family there and property prices are horrendous. Wages arent great and a lot of jobs don't exist (I've not had a job that exists in NZ)

Healthcare is free if you are pregnant or on benefits but I've had family pay for operations (that have gone wrong because the surgeons simply don't do enough of that type of operation).

Education is basic on an international level (learning Maori won't get you far outside of NZ). There are many good features but I think that many here consider NZ to be some kind of leftie paradise but it's not. You are expected to work and things aren't free.

But equally New Zealand has virtually no corruption and the 'look at me I'm a rebel' is much more rare there. People get having to do what you have to do instead of banging on about their 'special needs' and there's no admiration for fuckwits. Which is a good thing.

Perfectly legitimate comparisons, it’s to do with leadership, and sensible decision making. We are STILL not checking or quarantining people at air or sea ports.
Bloody ridiculous.

interesting article Sue

This is why I'd like everyone to stop comparing to NZ.

You've lived there? I'm seventh generation. Got a history degree majoring in NZ history there.

Healthcare in the UK outside of Covid times can be very good, very thorough, I have wondered why we shouldn't contribute when we could afford to, but I guess that's a higher calling. Thank Fucking God I didn't have my first kid over here, from what the UK people say one of us would have been dead.

Yes, you're expected to work? Um, yes! A bit like over here! But there are the unemployables over here, like over there, and they will be looked after, cradle to grave.

Yes you can compare to Vietnam or Taiwan instead if you prefer.

I heard on the radio today about social solidarity which summed up my thoughts. NZ has social solidarity as well as a healthier more outdoorsy population, they stand together as a people (despite many internal problems). NZ certainly would have struggled if they had a big run on cases as their health care system would not have coped. I suspect if you look at countries that have done well when dealing with covid they also social solidarity. The UK sadly doesn't have it, there has been no collective goal and action within the population.

Maybe not New Zealand then, but how about Hong Kong?

They are not so different from London, although more densely packed. There are about 7 million people. They have had just 150 deaths from covid in total since it started and just under 9,000 cases.

Compare this to London with 9 million people although not quite as densely populated. 385,000 positive cases reported since pandemic begun compared with Hong Kong's 9,000.

In the last 7 days alone nearly 500 people have died from covid in London.

We lack clear governance, and compliance. In Hong Kong they comply with regulations and wear masks religiously. They had SARS to cope with so were already in the correct mindset.

@planningaheadtoday excellent example. Hong Kong is super crowded far more so than London.

We had the governance to wear masks etc but are too spoilt and entitled to follow it as this thread illustrates. The HK Chinese are considerably less self absorbed. And HK has always gone it's own way and been successful so is far from a communist shithole with its residents blindly doing as they are told.

Here we would rather blame the government and do nothing that might inconvenience us.

Countries with low covid rates and deaths have succeeded due to at least one of these reasons:

• Good leadership/decisive action by leaders
• Geographical/demographic factors in their favour, eg. Low population density
• Compliant people or a culture which promotes respect for authority and more collectivist thinking.

Unfortunately the UK fails on all of these.

NZ succeeds in points 1 and 2. Eastern countries such as Hong Kong succeed in Point 3 (and often 1 too).

It isn't just the UK being compared with NZ, almost every country is because what has been achieved there is phenomenal. Perhaps just accept it and try to move on.

@Saylethewayles

Do you really think the only reason we are doing badly in the UK is that we are densely populated?

Or could it maybe have something to do with the fact we locked down too late, didn't get a decent track and trace system in place, didn't support people to isolate, didn't enforce isolation upon returning from abroad, sent schools back unsafely, did eat out to help out, went back to work, imposed a ridiculous tier system which doesn't enforce no travel between tiers and is therefore pointless? Any of those things?

^^ 👍🏼

We’re would I like to be lockdown virus ridden and the new uk virus. Or free New Zealand

I think NZ’s tactics worked not only because of population density etc, but because of Ardern’s leadership.

Watching her pressers was like witnessing a masterclass in communication. She delivered messages clearly and confidently and used positive language (bubble, be kind etc).

You look at MN and see people debating rules ... that didn’t really happen in NZ. We all knew what to do. Also, it was short and sharp. If we’d had continued lockdowns like the UK, we would have given up, too.