To go off sick

[funnybeanz]

Wanted some opinions.

I was 26 weeks and a bit pregnant and found out there was no heartbeat, I gave birth on 26th Dec. Seems likely she had a true knot and the cord was round her neck three times. We're devastated.

I'm due to return to work after xmas holidays tomorrow, my work pay 6 months full pay for sickness and 6 months half pay, if you take that long. Because of my gestation I'm entitled to take the full maternity leave, but that is worse than the sick pay, 90% of pay for 6 weeks then 50% for 6 months.

If we decide to try again it's likely we will need private ivf which would be around £17k. We were about to start in sept when I got pregnant naturally in July. Our first child was IVF so the natural pregnancy was a complete surprise. Even the IVF clinic thought we'd need 3 cycles hence the high cost.

I'm considering trying to go off sick with stress/anxiety/bereavement all of which are true, rather than taking the maternity leave because it will get me more money to contribute to ivf. So many people at my work take time off sick for similar things and I'm annoyed that because my bereavement is for a baby I should take maternity and get paid less than if I was grieving another family member or had a stress related problem. It's not the 'right' thing to do though is it? But nothing has been fair for us so why should I think about what's fair?

Any advise? I don't think I'd take the full year, maybe 5/6 months but will see how I go.

I seriously wouldn’t go off sick - you could lose your job, even if it’s genuine. You could be managed out. I’ve seen it several times. Maybe a week or two.

I would only be concerned that you might use up absence management triggers and be subject to getting repeated sick notes which could be stressful.

this. Maternity leave would protect you for such procedures.

And I am sorry for your loss

I’m so sorry for your loss.

I’d check what the implications of being off long term sick would be - Most places have a policy that if you’re off sick again in a certain length of time it counts differently in terms of the money

@Worriedandabitscared

I think you're entitled to maternity leave after 24 weeks, is that a more suitable option or would sick be better? Either way you're not unreasonable at all, I'm so sorry for your loss

Op explained she would be entitled to ML but SL pays more.

Honestly I’d take some mat leave from tomorrow to recover physically and grieve before thinking any further it automatically triggers from birth
I get where you’re coming from in terms of sick/mat but I think it’s completely dependent on your employers approach to sickness management as to whether sickness would be more stressful for you

I’m very sorry for your loss

Do you work for a large employee that you know in your heart can absorb the losses easily? If so go for it and take the sick leave.
If it’s a smaller company and it will personally affect another family then I’d say do the maternity leave.
It will prob cause some kind of lingering guilt if it’s the latter, which is the last thing you need right now.
I’m sorry for you’re losses and I pray that you heal your heart as much as possible.

Onetimenamechanger - I know that was my bad sorry, I didn't read the full thread but I also meant suitable in the sense op would be more protected as I know some employers can be iffy with sick leave no matter the circumstances. SL pays more now but if she needs it in the future it could cause financial strain, such a shit situation :( hope it all works out for you op

You know the company you work for and can perhaps better judge it better than others how a long-term absence is dealt with. I’m sure many GPs would sign you off - but in reality, you can still lose your job. It doesn’t matter that you have a sick note, it doesn’t matter if you are genuinely ill. Use your maternity leave. You are much better protected.

Just thinking again...If you are a teacher who is due back tomorrow-please give your head a ring about this now to discuss it. They will need to know that they have to cover your classes and with all the union stuff going on, the more time you give them to sort things out, the better. They may also give you some advice about what
to do.

Sorry for your loss OP. It’s an awful thing to happen and you are right to carve out some time before thinking about work.

I just wanted to make you aware of the legal implications so you can make a properly informed choice.

The sensible option is to use your maternity leave to start with. In order to qualify for sick leave you’d have to “return” from maternity leave - which means you couldn’t go back on maternity leave for this baby if you decided to for any reason. So you would effectively have to give up your mat leave altogether in order to take sick pay.

You also lose your legal protection after your maternity leave has ended - so any rights relating to pregnancy and maternity discrimination are gone, as the “protected” period when they apply ends when mat leave does.

What that means is that they could manage you out of the business on capability grounds if you don’t return from sick leave after a lengthy period of time, in the same way as any other employee. You probably don’t qualify for any legal disability protection at this point, as it’s more likely to be short term stress/bereavement, so you could find yourself in an even more precarious position if you lost your job. You could say it’s sex discrimination but that’s a fall back argument that I’d try and avoid - it’s not an easy one.

The bottom line is you have a year you can take, and if your employer chose to make life difficult then they may well factor in your choice to use sick leave over maternity in any decision making.

Personally I would use the maternity leave as it’s safer in the longer term.

I hope you find a way through, whatever you decide.

I would start with a couple of weeks off and see how you're getting on after that. I think long-term leave can cause its own issues and make it harder to return the longer it goes on.

Talk to your GP and they will help you decide but going off sick is entirely reasonable.

I hope this doesn’t sound patronising or glib but as a midwife I saw many women who did conceive again naturally having done so once following infertility. Of course I know nothing of your circumstances and it won’t be on your mind yet but don’t completely rule this out as a possibility.

Sincere best wishes to you and your family.💐

I’m sorry for your loss.

In keeping with the advice above: someone on maternity leave should be prioritised and given an equivalent job on return even if your workplace had redundancies or restructure (without having to apply for or interview for the job) .

If you are on sick leave you may not have that protection.

I wouldn’t make a plan how long you will be off. Take it one day at a time. The “official” bereavement policy where I work (which also has 6 months full pay and six months half for people who have been there a while) is two days. Obviously people do go sick after that but I haven’t known anybody to be off sick for months and months due to a bereavement.

If you did use the sick policy at our place you would not want to be off sick, go back briefly, find you can’t cope and go off sick again as there are triggers for meetings/reviews etc and 2 or more absences etc would be a trigger so you would need to stay off until you were confident you would not be off again if you could.

I think as you plan to take 5 or 6 months off then maternity leave would be a better choice. You will not be required to keep your GP and employer informed regularly and you can try to heal and take time physically and emotionally/do things with your family without having to feel/behave like you are “sick” which you might on some level feel if you are having to get regular sick notes from your GP and feel your colleagues and workplace are judging you and whether you are “sick” or should be back.

I also wonder if you have the choice that you think they have between the two policies. I.e. can you choose to end maternity leave without actually returning to work (and ask for it to be changed to sick leave). I believe you have to give your employer eight weeks notice of your wish to return to work early (before the 52 weeks is up) so I guess you would give your eight weeks notice and then instead of returning get a sick note and ask to go sick but I don’t know if that would work if you didn’t actually return. The maternity leave might just be extended as you didn’t end it by returning to work. I think you will need to find the answer to questions like these and know your rights.

[quote Scrunchies]@funnybeanz I’m so so sorry for your loss.

I’m a GP and you’re right, people go on long term sick leave for much less. I wouldn’t hesitate to give you a sick note - the max you could get first of all would be 3 months but I’d extend it after that to 6 quite happily. You’d need to be signed off with a medical condition tho - so stress or anxiety - rather than bereavement. Very simple to do tho - just say the bereavement has caused you (understandable) stress.

Seriously I sign off some utter shit reasons for ‘stress’ so you have a very valid reason for needing as long as you like. My heart goes out to you ❤️[/quote]
And that is why so many managers don't believe the people who are genuinely sick with anxiety - because it has become the new "bad back" and GPs routinely sign people off for "utter shit reasons". This is why so many employers are now extremely tough on sick leave. Especially sick leave for stress.

If you need this job and a good attendance record when applying for your next job (it doesn't sound as if you're in the private sector, so this probably doesn't apply)
I am in the public sector, and I can assure you that a good attendance record is not only a requirement for progression, but also for continued employment. Managing attendance processes (i.e. the progression towards being dismissed) kick in after 9 days absence / three occasions in any 12 month period. As someone with a severe disability, I am treated more leniently - I get 11 days or three occasions! The days when the public sector was an easy ride are long gone, and few public sector employers still look leniently on sick leave. We are likely to be in compulsory redundancies in the next few months if we don't get enough applications for voluntary leavers, and like any other employer, sickness absence will be a factor in selection.

Just like anywhere else, public sector managers are not stupid and know who is playing the system. And there are consequences.

If the OP is sick, then yes, they should take sick leave. For as long as they are unfit to do their work. That is what sick leave is for. But it is not for not going to work for as long as possible because you don't fancy it but also want you full pay.

OP, I am so sorry for your devastating loss. This is absolutely heartbreaking

YANBU at all for wanting to do this is the best way for you. You definitely need time off and I see your point that you shouldn't get paid less than someone off for any other reason. I must admit that it isn't something I have really given thought to before.

I am not sure you can actually take sick leave in this scenario op, you might need to return to work first? I think you are required to take a few weeks minimum maternity, then you would have to return to then go on sick leave if you are finishing maternity 'early'. I appreciate all workplaces are different so perhaps you can in your scenario. Also I may be completely misunderstanding the policies where I work. I just was always under the impression that you don't choose whether to take maternity or sick leave. Also, as others have said, maternity tends to confer more 'protection' than sick leave does.

I wonder if you could find out how it works where you are? Take care op, all the very best for your future. Thinking of you

Sorry to read of your loss. I suggest if at all possible not making a decision for a week or two, and being off sick for the meantime.

Seriously I sign off some utter shit reasons for ‘stress’

I can’t believe a GP has come on and admitted this - fucking hell, no wonder people with genuine stress/depression/anxiety get even more stressed and anxious about having to tell their employer they are off sick, and no wonder more employers roll their eyes when they see “stress” on a fit note and are tightening up their sick leave policies.

OP I would take 6 weeks maternity leave in the first instance and ask to be left alone - i.e. no contact from work, for 4-5 weeks, and take it from there.

I’m sorry for your loss OP.

If you are suffering from stress or depression to the extent that you cannot work, then of course you should be signed off sick. But saying up front you intend to take 5 or 6 months is not right - you don’t know how you will feel then.

I’m afraid I think too many people get signed off sick to get out of work - like the earlier poster who is a GP testified. It’s actually a form of fraud to do that and, as you say, it’s not right.

I don’t know what industry you are in but in many jobs (including mine - private sector) being off sick for such a long time would put you in a very precarious position. A woman at my work has been signed off for stress a couple of times in the last couple of years (for months at a time) and I happen to know that although nothing was said, senior management has taken a very dim view. I doubt she will progress at the firm and will probably be managed out. I’m not saying that’s right (and note that I myself have been signed off for for stress before, for two weeks), but it’s often the reality.

So sorry to hear what’s happened OP.
As others have said I think maternity leave is the best option right now. Then see how you feel in 4 to 6 weeks time.
I’m horrified that a GP came on here and said they were giving out sick notes regardless ...this makes my blood boil as it causes real issues for those genuinely suffering...that’s beyond irresponsible and beggars belief.
Take care OP.

Im so sorry for your loss.

Some employers (even quite large organizations) do not correctly follow their own policies on sick leave and can really muck it up. I went on long term sick leave due to stress brought on by poorly managed bullying. There came a point where I was called in for a "sickness management" interview which then turned into a disciplinery. My union rep who accompanied me jumped on them from a great height and began quoting employment law. Eventually they terminated my contract on "capability" grounds, However I had been employed just a few days long enough to have full legal employment protection. There were also disability issues. In the end they paid me 10 grand rather than risk legal action.

I would follow the advice to take the ML in the first instance as it gives you full legal protection. You do not know at this point how you are going to progress while grieving for your sad loss. It gives you a breathing space.

[quote Scrunchies]@funnybeanz I’m so so sorry for your loss.

I’m a GP and you’re right, people go on long term sick leave for much less. I wouldn’t hesitate to give you a sick note - the max you could get first of all would be 3 months but I’d extend it after that to 6 quite happily. You’d need to be signed off with a medical condition tho - so stress or anxiety - rather than bereavement. Very simple to do tho - just say the bereavement has caused you (understandable) stress.

Seriously I sign off some utter shit reasons for ‘stress’ so you have a very valid reason for needing as long as you like. My heart goes out to you ❤️[/quote]
I can’t believe you seem proud to admit that. You know you are costing businesses money and you are doing no favours for employees that have genuine needs for a sick note. Why don’t you have a rethink of your practices.

@Scrunchies can I ask, why do GPs sign people off for shit reasons? Aren't you able to say no if someone asks or would the patient just go and ask someone else? I always wonder how people manage to yet signed off for long periods of time for dubious reasons. No judgement (like pp's), just wondering.

[quote AwaAnBileYerHeid]@Scrunchies can I ask, why do GPs sign people off for shit reasons? Aren't you able to say no if someone asks or would the patient just go and ask someone else? I always wonder how people manage to yet signed off for long periods of time for dubious reasons. No judgement (like pp's), just wondering.[/quote]
To be fair. If a GP argues with someone about there anxiety or whatever it may be because “she thinks” they don’t have to extent of needing a sick note the GP probably would receive a huge complaint and of course she could possibly be wrong on her judgement. As a medical profession sometimes your hands are tied!

Take the maternity leave because they’ll leave you alone rather than have endless meetings occupational health assessments etc.

You’ve been through a massive trauma and I can’t even imagine. Try to focus on your current grief and feelings rather than focusing on funds for future IVF. One thing at a time.

To be fair. If a GP argues with someone about there anxiety or whatever it may be because “she thinks” they don’t have to extent of needing a sick note the GP probably would receive a huge complaint and of course she could possibly be wrong on her judgement. As a medical profession sometimes your hands are tied!

This kind of begs the question as to whether we should do away with fit notes altogether, really. If GPs feel under pressure to sign off any kind of shit, then the notes are of little use to employers, and it's surely just a monumental waste of NHS time.