Hilaria Baldwin identifying as Spanish being compared to trans people identifying as opposite gender

[Ace56]

Candace Owens is a very right wing, pro-Trump Republican. Needless to say, I don’t agree with a lot of what she says. However, this video she published recently got me thinking:

In it she basically compares the recent story with Hilaria and her false Spanish heritage to that of Rachel Dolezal, the white woman who ‘pretended’ to be black and also to trans people. The former 2 were completely slated and denounced for being ‘delusional’ and for appropriating a culture/race that they are not part of. Trans people, however, are praised and encouraged for claiming to be a gender which, biologically, they are not. Owens says that this is hypocritical, and that if one of these examples is not accepted, then none of them should be. Or, if one of them is acceptable, then they all should be. Why is it wrong to claim that you belong to a certain culture or race, when you do not, but it is ok to claim that you belong to a gender that you do not?

I do see this point of view, but I also feel like she is very flippant about trans people ‘suddenly waking up and deciding to be a woman’, when in reality they have often lived a painful struggle their whole lives to get to that point. I think it is an interesting idea though, and that all 3 examples definitely come from the same line of thinking.

Thoughts? (This is not meant to be a goady or ‘transphobic’ post, merely meant to invite some intelligent discussion)

Didn't watch the video but by your summary, I'd say she's correct. What's the difference in choosing to identify into race vs. sex? There isn't one.

IMO there's a huge difference between "identifying" as something (ie admitting that you are not that thing, but that you feel that way on the inside) and flat out lying that you are something you're not.

On the one hand, some men do flat out lie and pretend that they are transwomen in order to prey on women, gain access to female spaces, or gain certain benefits. This is wrong and comparable to what Hilaria did.

On the other hand some people genuinely do suffer from gender dysphoria. Having gender dysphoria is not "lying" because they are not pretending to be biologically genetically female. Hilaria claimed she was born in Spain. That's the equivalent of a transwoman claiming to have been born with a vagina and uterus.

Transwomen are upfront about the fact they were born into male bodies but that they "feel female" on the inside. (Yes I know there's a debate about what "feeling female" means.) That's the equivalent of Hilaria saying "I was born and raised in Boston but I love and feel more at home in Spain so I consider myself Spanish on the inside." If she'd said the latter no one would have objected and certainly no one would have called her a liar.

I hats your “AIBU”?

Rachel Dolezal is different because she doesn't "identify" as black in the sense that she knows her genetic ancestry is white but she "feels" black or genuinely consider herself to be black on the inside, she lied for financial gain and to get revenge on black students she was feuding with.

Pretending to be black was one of zillions of lies she's told over the years for financial gain, she also faked having cancer, lied that she had two sons when she didn't, pretended photos of other people were her sons and her father, lied that she used to live in a country she'd never even been to, has been accused of making numerous false abuse claims, has been accused of numerous charges of plagiarism including submitting three paintings made by other artists as her own, she lied that she'd worked as a sushi chef, she lied that she was a medical student. The list goes on and on and on.

Maybe she had mental health issues due to her struggle of living in a white body as a black person? Dealing with all the privilege she didn’t feel she deserved?

She's right though, isn't she (candace owens).

Lie down with dogs and you will get fleas "feminists".

@froggywentacarolling

Yes, I see what you mean. But trans people aren’t just saying that they ‘feel like’ the opposite gender, they are taking it a step further and saying that they ARE now the opposite gender. So Ellen Page now suddenly IS a man, for example, no questions asked.

I guess it’s the same as Hilaria ‘feeling’ like she connects to the Spanish culture, but instead of stopping there, takes it a step further and claims she IS actually Spanish.

Agree though that Rachel and Hilaria actually lied though about their true identity, which does make a difference.

One is good old fashioned lying, the other is lying in plain sight and using your privilege to bully people into accepting your lies (in some cases)

Is one better than the other?

But trans people aren’t just saying that they ‘feel like’ the opposite gender, they are taking it a step further and saying that they ARE now the opposite gender. So Ellen Page now suddenly IS a man, for example, no questions asked.

Trans ideology is fundamentally based on the idea that gender and sex are two different things. Sex is biological/genetic, and gender is what's on the inside. That's literally the dictionary definition of trans - that your sex is different from your gender.

I realise most MNers reject the idea that sex and gender are different things, but there is a big difference between saying "my sex is male" and saying "my sex is female but my gender is male."

Of course there are also trans extremists who claim that your gender IS your biological sex, and a huge push to eradicate the concept of sex and replace it entirely with gender identity. (Well, eradicate the concept of the female sex. By some weird coincidence the male sex is never threatened!!) I personally am completely against that and regard the attack on biological sex as a discrete category and a protected category as incredibly dangerous and sinister. But that's not the same as people saying, "I'm biologically female but my gender identity is male" and I don't consider the latter to be lying.

I am ethnically English (it’s a spectrum OK), but my cultural identity is Irish.
I am stunning and brave.

She's right though...

YANBU she is correct

It's a totally relevant question. Why can people appropriate sex but not race?

I think if you get into the specifics of these instances, there isn't much you can say. RD was/is a pathological liar with a personality disorder, and may at some level believe her own spin. Which is too bad and doesn't make what she did acceptable, but it is very specific to her situation and doesn't tell us much about the nature of race.

HB - I still haven't quite figured out what is up with her, but it seems strange.

With trans people too, there are all kinds of different scenarios.

But s far as the idea of being trans racial, or transgender, or transsexual, or anything else - I think you can compare, sure. There are some similarities, and it can be a very good exercise to try and tease out in what ways they might be the same, and what not. They are all controversial ideas and comparing similar (but not identical) things is an excellent way to understand them all better.

The catch is that you can't just assume they are equivalent, and therefore all wrong (or right.)

Listen to her delusional nonsense here about the US election.

Both sides are batshit crazy in the USA.

Democrats backing identity politics meant Trump didn't lose by as much as he should have.

How depressing is this?

This thread smacks of someone looking for screenshots to "prove" that women on mumsnet "agree with the alt-right".

Odd right wing American person says people can't change sex. I bet she also thinks kittens are cute and the sun is a big ball of fire.

100% agree and often made the same point re Doziel. I thought it was batshit, just as Hilary is. And thus just as trans is. Either accept them all or none.

I think ethnic identity is more problematic than gender identity. Gender at least is rooted in sex, ethnic identity is far more complex in that sense, race is a social construction, as is gender, but with little biological standing. I think it's perfectly possible to identify as a different culture, which is what 'ethnicity' is more about. I'm not sure you can say 'im black' if you're clearly not, but you can say 'i identify with black Caribbean culture' for example. Someone who was white but brought up in an black family, I would think, could legitimately claim that.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

It's a totally relevant question. Why can people appropriate sex but not race?

Exactly. There was also a guy who grew up in south London who moved to Scotland and pretended to be identified as Scottish. He was eventually "outed" and moved jobs and then he was "outed" again. I don't know what happened to him but why was that not ok but it would have been ok for him to change his name to a female one and say that henceforth he was no longer Tom but would be called Mary instead?

A stopped clock and all that...

If David Icke put his hand out the window and said it was raining I wouldn't disagree with him out of principle.

@OppsUpsSide

One is good old fashioned lying, the other is lying in plain sight and using your privilege to bully people into accepting your lies (in some cases)

Is one better than the other?

This ^ 100% this

My understanding is that someone who is trans can change their birth certificate so it says the sex they identify with rather than the sex they were born with / have transitioned from. For anyone who does that, that seems a lot closer to saying 'I was born in Spain' than saying 'I wish I had been born in Spain'.

I’m not sure you can say 'im black' if you're clearly not, but you can say 'i identify with black Caribbean culture' for example.

That depends on what you mean by clearly not. It is not always clear what someone’s race is especially if they are mixed race or have features that do not match people’s perceptions or stereotypes of a certain race.

Also, let’s not forget the role society plays in this and skin colour. Many people of brown hues could not get away with saying their white or identify as white whereas someone that isn’t of a brown or darker skintone could more likely get away with saying they’re not white.

*they’re