Hilaria Baldwin identifying as Spanish being compared to trans people identifying as opposite gender

[Ace56]

Candace Owens is a very right wing, pro-Trump Republican. Needless to say, I don’t agree with a lot of what she says. However, this video she published recently got me thinking:

In it she basically compares the recent story with Hilaria and her false Spanish heritage to that of Rachel Dolezal, the white woman who ‘pretended’ to be black and also to trans people. The former 2 were completely slated and denounced for being ‘delusional’ and for appropriating a culture/race that they are not part of. Trans people, however, are praised and encouraged for claiming to be a gender which, biologically, they are not. Owens says that this is hypocritical, and that if one of these examples is not accepted, then none of them should be. Or, if one of them is acceptable, then they all should be. Why is it wrong to claim that you belong to a certain culture or race, when you do not, but it is ok to claim that you belong to a gender that you do not?

I do see this point of view, but I also feel like she is very flippant about trans people ‘suddenly waking up and deciding to be a woman’, when in reality they have often lived a painful struggle their whole lives to get to that point. I think it is an interesting idea though, and that all 3 examples definitely come from the same line of thinking.

Thoughts? (This is not meant to be a goady or ‘transphobic’ post, merely meant to invite some intelligent discussion)

@phoenixrosehere

I’m not sure you can say 'im black' if you're clearly not, but you can say 'i identify with black Caribbean culture' for example.

That depends on what you mean by clearly not. It is not always clear what someone’s race is especially if they are mixed race or have features that do not match people’s perceptions or stereotypes of a certain race.

Also, let’s not forget the role society plays in this and skin colour. Many people of brown hues could not get away with saying their white or identify as white whereas someone that isn’t of a brown or darker skintone could more likely get away with saying they’re not white.

Yes I agree with that. I guess really I mean that you can identify with a particular culture regardless of your skin colour and it's not necessarily racist or appropriation to say that you do.

I guess really I mean that you can identify with a particular culture regardless of your skin colour and it's not necessarily racist or appropriation to say that you do.

I agree.

She's absolutely right.

Not sure what the options are for your AIBU are OP?

But I think pretending to be something you are not cuts across race, sex and place of origin. Even if you say you really really want to be that thing that you are not.

Trans ideology is fundamentally based on the idea that gender and sex are two different things. Sex is biological/genetic, and gender is what's on the inside. That's literally the dictionary definition of trans - that your sex is different from your gender.

And yet Girlguiding argue that they can be a single sex organisation (allowed by the Equality Act) and take members who have a male sex but say they have the gender of a woman.

It's all very disingenuous and I was called transphobic at work recently as well for saying that transmen are of the female sex.

I think that’s so ridiculous. Being trans isn’t choosing to identify as a gender you are not. Gender and sex are two different things. Both have a biological basis, except one is visible and one isn’t. Most people’s gender and bio sex align. For people with GID, whose gender and sex don’t align, the recommended and most effective treatment is transitioning.

I personally don’t see how they’re comparable at all.

Both have a biological basis, except one is visible and one isn’t.

@honeyytoasr, interesting! What biological factors are there to gender?

@brumboo difference in sizes of brain structures between males and females, there’s been some research on how trans people have the “bstc” (a brain area) size associated with the opposite sex, I.e. the one they “feel” like. Very interesting stuff

@honeyytoast

How does different brain sizes denote a biological gender, as opposed to it being part of the genetic makeup of your sex? I'm interested to know how brain size represents female or male 'feelings'!

It should all be classed under identity issues. I have no idea why trans people are classed with LGB. I recognise that people have identity issues, I also see how their issues can harm other people.

[quote honeyytoast]@brumboo difference in sizes of brain structures between males and females, there’s been some research on how trans people have the “bstc” (a brain area) size associated with the opposite sex, I.e. the one they “feel” like. Very interesting stuff[/quote]
I'm afraid all these studies are of those who've been "living as/perceived as" the opposite gender for quite some time, so we have no idea if they are changes due to the individual's experiences and way they are treated/the choices they make, or were there before they transitioned.

Plus they are tiny and badly carried out.

There are no studies to suggest men and women have different brains based on their gender.

That shit is what held us down for centuries, let's not perpetuate it any more than we have to

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

There are no studies to suggest men and women have different brains based on their gender.

That shit is what held us down for centuries, let's not perpetuate it any more than we have to

This. 100%.

The next thing we'll hear is the female brain scans were pink and the male were blue

OH's parents are not British, he was born in the UK and has lived here all his life. Some people would say as his parents are foreign he is biologically foreign but he feels British.
I don't think you can't just make up you're American/a dog/an alien but I think you can 'not match up' to what biology says you are. I think though that a lot of people who think they're trans actually have other issues and/or think changing gender will solve their problems. I think it's a worry that a lot of young people particulaly those with ASD feel they don't fit in and think it is because they are trans.

[quote honeyytoast]@brumboo difference in sizes of brain structures between males and females, there’s been some research on how trans people have the “bstc” (a brain area) size associated with the opposite sex, I.e. the one they “feel” like. Very interesting stuff[/quote]
Oh dear, you’ve read the debunked science haven’t you? The only difference in male and female brains could be size. But only if the man is bigger than the woman. A 5 yr old male brain would be smaller than a 20 yr old female brain. The rest is an urban myth that has been well and truly disproven.
And what about people who transition then detransition? Does their brain change in size during this process?
Gender is a socially constructed concept. It isn’t biological. So people can choose whatever gender they want to associate with.
Many young transwomen initially seemed to be ‘effeminate’ gay boys who felt they had more in common with girls - primarily they were attracted to other boys! The step to transitioning is very easy to take there. GIDS have commented on the number of parents who disclose that they thought their son was gay but are now sure they're trans.
As for men who transition later in life, the vast majority of them are heterosexual men who get sexual satisfaction from seeing themselves dressed as a woman - AGP. They rarely have genital surgery as they still enjoy having heterosexual sex.

So I’d say there is a vast difference between claiming you are a different race to the one you were born into, which is biological; claiming you are a different nationality to the one you were born into - people do this all the time when they move countries - my aunt is now legally South African by nationality according to her passport; claiming you are a particular gender, which is societal and self determining and claiming to be the opposite sex which again is biological and therefore not changeable.

A transwoman has a male sex but who prefers to be thought of as what society would class as a woman in terms of gender.

I watched the video. And she is right of course.

This is why it is so important to listen to people of every different group and discuss with them. On some things I will agree with Candace Owens and on some things I won’t. But she is interesting and articulate.

@honeyytoast

Are you actually saying I have a 'lady brain' because I'm female?

Can you really not see the harm in perpetuating rubbish like this?

This is why it is so important to listen to people of every different group and discuss with them. On some things I will agree with Candace Owens and on some things I won’t.

Absolutely this. One of the biggest issues in today's society is that people think once you've picked a side, you must absolutely stick with it, and never, ever listen to anyone who has a difference of opinion for fear they may have a point (or 5). It also means you cannot have cross-political/social views - once you are a 'liberal', you must ahere to all left leaning idealisms, otherwise you're just a Conservative in disguise. It's exhausting having to minimise your views and critical thinking skills in order to stick to the party line.....

@StrippedFridge

This thread smacks of someone looking for screenshots to "prove" that women on mumsnet "agree with the alt-right".

Odd right wing American person says people can't change sex. I bet she also thinks kittens are cute and the sun is a big ball of fire.

Well if that's what they wanted they've definitely found it.

What biological factors are there to gender?

Your chromosomes, and the resulting genitalia.

The world forces gender upon you based on your genitals.

If you're born with a vagina you're expected to go in for being kind and submissive and wearing makeup and fancying boys and being brilliant at doing everything while men put their feet up - the socially constructed feminine gender, in other words.

No one's born that way.

Of course there are also trans extremists who claim that your gender IS your biological sex, and a huge push to eradicate the concept of sex and replace it entirely with gender identity. (Well, eradicate the concept of the female sex. By some weird coincidence the male sex is never threatened!!) I personally am completely against that and regard the attack on biological sex as a discrete category and a protected category as incredibly dangerous and sinister. But that's not the same as people saying, "I'm biologically female but my gender identity is male" and I don't consider the latter to be lying.

Unfortunately, this appears to be the mainstream view right now, not extremists.

In theory what you say about sex and gender being different is correct. And also, this is not an uncommon view on MN (infact, most I see on the feminist board anyway do make the distinction) and everything would be 'fine' if that was stuck to so to speak. But the current push is to say sex and gender are different, but then purposely try to fudge the two, you see this a lot with articles and such on the topic, and the law changes that are being pushed for sneakily replace sex WITH gender, though its 'apparently accepted by all that they are different.. A good current example of this is sex segregated spaces actually. Sex segregated. But my gender is different to my sex, so therefor I should be in the areas for the opposite sex and anyone who disagrees is a nasty bigot.

@TyroTerf

What biological factors are there to gender?

Your chromosomes, and the resulting genitalia.

The world forces gender upon you based on your genitals.

If you're born with a vagina you're expected to go in for being kind and submissive and wearing makeup and fancying boys and being brilliant at doing everything while men put their feet up - the socially constructed feminine gender, in other words.

No one's born that way.

I personally don't disagree, however the person I tagged, @honeyytoast, suggested that sex and gender were both biological. I think we all know the sociological expectations of gender (that has stemmed from old science/religion thinking women have a 'ladybrain' and therefore are weaker/collectively like 'girly' things).

I'd be interested in any findings that show males can be born with a biological gender, rather than or along side sex based biology.

If I were to suggest that I was trans black because I want to wear my hair in corn rows and I like reggae and jerk chicken, people would say I was offensive. If I insisted that I be eligible for scholarships and other opportunities ring fenced for black people to address historic inequality I would be denounced. If I think said that black people are privileged because they are cis black, and they’ve never had to earn their blackness, and in fact the anti racism movement should centre and prioritise the needs of trans black (ie: white people) I would receive death threats.

How is this different from being transgender?