Toddler class still running in Tier 4

[AllChange2021]

On Facebook I've just seen that a local toddler class is still running. We're in Tier 4. There was a message to the effect that the organiser had read the restrictions and believed that they can still meet. Classes last 45 minutes and are a lot of fun but the parent or carer has to stay with the child/children so this in no way is helping parents work nor providing respite for the adults.
So there will be ( up to 15?) parents/carers indoors with toddlers. Doesn't this make a mockery of the Tier 4 Stay At Home message and the sacrifices we're all making? How can anyone go ahead with this with a clear conscience in the current circumstances?

@Brysonette

I run a playgroup, we won't be opening again this term (Tier 4), although legally we could. Before Christmas we had a lot more join who had young babies and desperately needed to speak to someone else (we socially distanced in a massive hall with masks). One burst into tears at being able to speak to other parents since having her , rather tricky, baby. We're a rural area with low Covid cases, although that is now rising fast, hence Tier 4. I really feel for mothers with new babies. It's isolating as it is, especially around here, I would have very much struggled to cope.

It’s not bending or interpreting the rules. In addition to the exemption you mentioned, there’s an exemption for activities organised for the benefit of toddlers under 5. It is absolutely 100% allowed.

Luckily @AllChange2021 nobody cares whether you personally understand whether it’s allowed. And you have no business telling other people what is or isn’t hard, and what they can or can’t do.

My health visitor said the levels of PND she is seeing are frighteningly high and they’ve decided to launch a new class in my area to get parents out of the house and have more support because there is literally nothing else.

Just because it doesn’t seem essential to you doesn’t mean it isn’t painfully essential to someone else, PND can get awful very quickly.

@Sway19

It’s allowed but the people who run these groups and those that attend are incredibly selfish

Bear in mind that People that run these groups (I am one of them) often do it for a living. I agree it’s morally dubious but if it’s legal to run it and legal to attend you can’t have a go at the people who do so.

I do think some provision should be allowed for new mums and their babies though (as there now is). It’s a very lonely and daunting place as a new mum. Even more so right now.

[quote Sway19]@Fatladyslim speaking in that way is so unbecoming. I’m a mum to a young toddler so I do understand, but I’m also a nurse who went back to work from maternity leave straight into the pandemic. I can see both sides, but stand by my original statement[/quote]
Personally I feel calling parents selfish for seeking support during a pandemic in a 40 minute, covid safe and controlled environment class quite 'unbecomming'. But hey, I don't work for the NHS so guess I have no right to speak.

It’s not like a school situation where the law says you have to attend unless the school closes. Nurseries and toddler groups are optional. If a parent feels there is a risk, then don’t send. Likewise if they are comfortable with it, take them. That’s presuming they are acting within the rules to open.

These groups were a massive support to me when I was on the brink with PND. Mental health support on the other hand was virtually non-existent and from the accounts of friends suffering with PND in the pandemic, service are even more depleted now.

Oh dear. Fancy having something on for a mum and her children. Something that can possibly help her reach out to others at difficult times.

It’s allowed but the people who run these groups and those that attend are incredibly selfish

The lady who runs ours (not for profit) is one of the least selfish people I’ve ever had the good fortune to meet. She does more for people and her local community than I’m willing to bet most of the people on this thread do, especially those so keen to call
others selfish - even if they do work for the NHS (as this lady did for many years before she retired but continued working hard to support vulnerable people including new mums).

My baby hasn’t met most of her family. We went back into local lockdown on the day she was born and have been under maximum restrictions of whatever sort ever since. That, combined with a traumatic birth, long recovery, a disastrous feeding experience and (unconnected) a bereavement in the family has left me with and. I’m not exaggerating when I say that being able to go to this group (limited numbers, socially distanced, masks, ventilated etc) has been the one of the few things keeping me from tipping over the edge. I don’t really give a fuck if others see it as selfish, I’ll do what it takes to keep going for my baby and if that’s sitting in a room with 5 other mums once a week in a draughty church hall, which is within the law, then there we are.

In our case the group is only for non crawling babies. I feel really sorry for mums of older babies and toddlers as there is just nothing for them and it must be so tough.

@Fatladyslim oh dear, who has insinuated that you don’t have a right to speak?

These groups were a massive support to me when I was on the brink with PND. Mental health support on the other hand was virtually non-existent and from the accounts of friends suffering with PND in the pandemic, service are even more depleted now

My midwife was great and didn’t discharge me until I’d been referred to the GP for pnd. GP gave me a 4 minute phone appointment
then put me on a waiting list for the local ‘healthy minds’ team. 6 weeks later I was sent a link to an online course which told me to plan to do more things, stop putting things off and fill in copious amounts of worksheets - all of which are super helpful to a sleep-deprived mum with no family support recovering from trauma.
I just needed to make more lists!

Luckily I have a good husband and people on the end of the phone but I really feel for people without that because the level of support is dire.

Can we merge this thread with one of the "how did they do it right in NZ" threads.
Stay home.
Everyone.
Keep away from each other.

[quote Sway19]@Fatladyslim oh dear, who has insinuated that you don’t have a right to speak?[/quote]
Well why else would you randomly bring up that fact on a thread that is absolutely nothing to do with you working as a nurse during a pandemic?

It is really a low blow to start accusing women trying to seek some support with a young baby of being selfish on a parenting site. Women who are feeling isolated, maybe with pnd or on the brink of it, will read this and feel that they shouldn't access that support - either through seeing other mums at a group or seeing a non-local support bubble etc. Pnd can be very serious for mum and baby and isolation and lack of practical support are major contributing factors.

For anyone in that position reading this, I have been to plenty of groups since they opened up and found them a lifeline for meeting other mums and entertaining my baby at times when there has been hardly anything else I have been allowed to do with DS. I also wanted to make sure DS was seeing some other babies, even if only at a distance. Getting out the house even for a short class can make a huge difference to how you cope. I haven't caught covid and don't no anyone at any of these classes who has.

I'm always amazed that people who supposedly have so much empathy for those dying of covid have so little empathy for anyone else.

I had my baby a week into the first lockdown and there was nothing - no health visitors, no midwife support after birth, my gp wouldn't see me, we weren't allowed to see friends or family, no groups including breastfeeding support. It felt like an experiment in what happens if you completely isolate new mums. I still feel teary when I think about the first few weeks of my baby's life and how alone I felt and I'm not someone with poor mental health in general. It is very cruel to try to take the limited support which has now been allowed to mums of young children away again.

@Chessie678 brilliant post, I’m sorry that was your experience.

@AllChange2021

Well it seems as *@Meredithgrey1* shows it is allowed. But as far as I can see that runs counter to any idea of stay at home or essential activities only. Personally I don't see why it is allowed. And as for those who want to have fun - there's a pandemic on. Can you possibly postpone your fun until after people stop dying? Avoiding gatherings can't be that hard surely?

Sorry but baby groups are essential to some people. Do you have any idea how isolating it is for new mums at the moment? PND rates have gone up a lot, people need some adult contact and support. Lots of new mums count as vulnerable, that’s why support bubbles were allowed for this group. Mental health matters too.

@Fatladyslim because Covid restrictions and how people interpret them has a direct impact on the people I care for, my colleagues, me and my family. I thought that would be obvious

In my area, in tier 2 and 3 the baby groups were still running. In the November lockdown baby sensory and baby sign were closed but other local classes that stayed open were a music class and a mum and baby yoga class.

In teir 4, baby sensory type class is closed and will open in line with schools and I'm yet to hear re baby sign.

I'm unsure if I will continue attending though.

I personally feel that they offer support, I see other people and a way to get out of the house. But I also feel that in the scheme of things at the moment it isn't fully necessary (to me).

because Covid restrictions and how people interpret them has a direct impact on the people I care for, my colleagues, me and my family. I thought that would be obvious

They also have an impact on mothers with no contact all day. Why is that so hard to understand? You aren't the only one affected.

I really feel for new mums at the moment, it can be such an isolating experience without being in a pandemic and older people have the choice to go out if they want to, garden centres are still open, golf is still open so why should new mums and babies have to suffer , people still have the right to live and as a previous poster said there are other illnesses besides covid, most people recover from covid but PND can be catastrophic. I’m not saying that one trumps the other but I think some empathy for other illnesses and issues wouldn’t go amiss sometimes.

[quote Sway19]@Fatladyslim because Covid restrictions and how people interpret them has a direct impact on the people I care for, my colleagues, me and my family. I thought that would be obvious[/quote]
These groups are allowed within the restrictions so I don't understand why you think people who attend them are selfish.

The fact you are a nurse is neither here nor there to this conversation but don't let that stop you brining it randomly, obviously hopeing it will make people agree with the utter judgy nonsense you are spouting.

Anyone who thinks it’s selfish to go to these has not had a newborn in the pandemic. You have no idea how hard it is to be in the hospital with a new baby with no one allowed in to help so you can’t even take a shower, then get home and no ones allowed to come and help so you and DH (I’d you even have one) try to manage by yourself whilst you’re recovering from birth, then he goes back to work and you’re alone completely without any support. Going to a baby group might not seem like much to those who had a baby in normal times but right now it is a lifeline to some people, and the only time they get out of the house during the week and see another adult. It is most definitely not selfish to go to one.

@Mousehole10 this thread isn’t about newborn baby groups, it’s about a toddler group. Two very different things. You’ve missed the point entirely

@Mousehole10

Anyone who thinks it’s selfish to go to these has not had a newborn in the pandemic. You have no idea how hard it is to be in the hospital with a new baby with no one allowed in to help so you can’t even take a shower, then get home and no ones allowed to come and help so you and DH (I’d you even have one) try to manage by yourself whilst you’re recovering from birth, then he goes back to work and you’re alone completely without any support. Going to a baby group might not seem like much to those who had a baby in normal times but right now it is a lifeline to some people, and the only time they get out of the house during the week and see another adult. It is most definitely not selfish to go to one.

I completely agree!

And it's not just about new mothers either, parenting a toddler during lockdown must be really bloody hard. Groups like these offer a lot of support to parents, even if it is just a bit of adult chat whilst the children play on their mats.

I will be going to one from next week with my baby. He was born in lockdown and has lived under strict rules ever since...I was pregnant before the pandemic started before anyone says I chose to give birth during this time!!!

Since he was born he has had very few opportunities to meet anyone other than me and my husband. I am incredibly worried about how this will affect his development...this is something I have studied!

The class I am going to has taped out areas on the floor, you have to buy your own equipment and parents do not socialise...they are simply there in the squares with their masks on, supporting their babies.

I have really considered whether this is the right thing to do but ultimately came to the conclusion that this is development time that I simply cannot get back for my child and if I can access things to help with this, I will.

I’m on maternity, my husband works from home and the only time I ever leave the house is to go to the supermarket or attend postnatal appointments etc. I am taking this pandemic very seriously but also have to consider my child’s development.

I'm sick of people virtue signalling that they're over-following the rules and judging other people for not doing the same.

Support bubbles are allowed. Parent and baby/toddler groups are allowed. I have therefore formed a support bubble and have and will continue to attend classes. Please stop trying to shame me and other new mums.

To any new mums out there who are undecided - please don't let the judgy comments on here put you off availing yourself of the support that you need and are legally allowed to take