Would you pay an additional tax for the NHS?

[Whatisthis543]

I’m torn on this one, surely our taxes should cover a well funded NHS but it seems that they don’t...

Is that systematic I.e too much bureaucracy and poor allocation of resources (within the trusts and elsewhere) or is there genuinely not enough money with an ageing population and rapid growth?

I think lots of things are not working and need a fix but ultimately, it is hugely underfunded. I worked and lived in different European countries before I had kids and their systems are all better IMO but also more expensive. In the end, what you pay is what you get and I would be more than happy to pay more for health if I would get a better service in return (I work part time due to having a severely disabled child and I am not well off).

No. Paying more tax does not automatically totally mean we'd get improved services. I'd be happier paying more towards private health care, as others have suggested.

Absolutely not. I particularly think the 40% higher tax rate is already such a disincentive to anyone that works harder for a promotion, only to lose nearly half of it (once you factor in NI) on tax.

I grew up in another European country and the health care system there was better. Mainly because people could choose between several non profit making private insurance based sickness funds, and any which were as incompetent and non patient centred as the nhs would go out of business.

I do think there is a lot of fobbing off of patients on the NHS, treatment is refused, physical checks are cursory or not carried out in too many cases, and delays are endemic - all this makes claims for negligence relatively Numerous. All too often, it seems that the nhs model of treatment is based on an imaginary, fictitious patient if that age and sex, rather than the patient in front of the doctor. The NHS seems to take away some aspects of clinical judgement by ibsusting on a ine-size-fits-all modus operandi.

I'm my case, I've had the nhs fail to treat me for pneumonia and a leg fracture, and was repeatedly fobbed off and denied x rays until presenting at A&E after 3 weeks both times. Quite astonishing really, but not that unusual.

It never fails to amaze me that people cannot see that if you pay far less for something it is likely to struggle to get the same service or results as a better funded equivalent.
It would be odd for people not to recognise that Eton is likely to provide better resources and more services that Scaggs End Community School. They would say you pay for what you get.
Looking for houses? The detached one on 1/2 an acre with five double en-suite bedrooms is likely to be a nicer option than an ex local authority one bedroom, 11th floor, flat. You might say that’s not a fair comparison because they aren’t the same price.

A six year old Fiesta isn’t as appealing to most people as a a brand new Mercedes. Why would anyone think the Fiesta was better? Then if we said the Fiesta will cost a quarter of the Mercedes, but drive a family of four the same distance it might become more appealing. Particularly if the Mercedes only had two seats, and some of the family had to walk.

The NHS is very efficient. No doubt about it. The problem is perception. People don’t see the funding differential. The things that are missed from other nations healthcare systems or the people who are denied healthcare.

I think we should pay for gp services to be honest, and fine people for using A&E improperly. A lot of money and time being wasted on people who go to GPs to just have a chat or go to A&E for something that isn't an emergency. Doesn't have to be big payments or fines, just something to make people reconsider it.

And also cut the pay of the people at the top in half, at least. That would be a start.

I think we should look at countries that are getting noticeably better outcomes for example Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany.

After all if you do the same thing over and over again you get the same results.

The NHS is very efficient. No doubt about it. The problem is perception

😀😀😀

We have had dealings with the NHS. Our “perception” has wiped out our savings and pension.

Are you saying that the NHS doctor saying there was an operation Dp could have that might save him or at least buy him more time but the NHS weren’t going to do it was all in our minds or we just perceived that conversation

And also cut the pay of the people at the top in half, at least. That would be a start

Do you think they would stick around or go fully private

@Oliversmumsarmy

The NHS is very efficient. No doubt about it. The problem is perception

😀😀😀

We have had dealings with the NHS. Our “perception” has wiped out our savings and pension.

Are you saying that the NHS doctor saying there was an operation Dp could have that might save him or at least buy him more time but the NHS weren’t going to do it was all in our minds or we just perceived that conversation

That’s not inefficiency. That’s underfunding. The NHS can only provide what it is commissioned and funded to provide. It provides a huge amount on a shoestring compared to other systems,

@tttigress

I think we should look at countries that are getting noticeably better outcomes for example Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany.

After all if you do the same thing over and over again you get the same results.

No, do you know the funding differentials? Better outcomes are because they pay more. Far more.

Do you think they would stick around or go fully private

Who cares? They aren't doing a good job anyway. Get some new blood in, they might do a better job, have better ideas.

I think we should look at countries that are getting noticeably better outcomes for example Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany.

After all if you do the same thing over and over again you get the same results.

Here is a list of the countries who spent more per capita than the UK in 2019 (source - OECD):

USA
Switzerland
Norway
Austria
Sweden
Germany
Netherlands
Denmark
Luxembourg
Australia
Canada
France
Belgium
Ireland
Japan
Iceland

*on healthcare

In theory, yes.

But the NHS isn’t underfunded because there isn’t sufficient money - it has been underfunded deliberately. If it were properly prioritised and still unaffordable then absolutely, but that’s not the case.

Then again I’d be happy to pay more tax generally for better quality public services, but not to a government who’ve enforced austerity for ideological reasons.

@Deathgrip

In theory, yes.

But the NHS isn’t underfunded because there isn’t sufficient money - it has been underfunded deliberately. If it were properly prioritised and still unaffordable then absolutely, but that’s not the case.

Then again I’d be happy to pay more tax generally for better quality public services, but not to a government who’ve enforced austerity for ideological reasons.

Absolutely.

Yes I would but I'm not throwing money into the morass that it currently is.
I'd like to see many changes and tweaks before I did..

I look at threads like this and see that the government has achieved its long term goal: starve and strip the NHS; make sure the consequent failings are so highly publicised that they become part of an accepted narrative; sit tight and wait until thoughtful, educated people like those on this thread see no realistic alternative to the end of our beloved NHS; send in some horror show like Dodo Harding with a ‘fundamental restructure’ that will ‘save the day’... I’m just waiting for the announcement this year that our ‘world beating Health Insurance Scheme’ is being rolled out. It is Better Than European Equivalents, Based on the Principles of the NHS...

we’ve been played, skilfully, slowly, and completely.

Oh goodness I'd better add that after 10 years of Blair my local hospital was at one point called the worst in the UK! Or close to it, people begged not to be taken there and the horror stories that came out!. Stents left in small dc after discharge, women left alone to labour....

Now its been dragged up to a reasonable standard and even has a new part.

This is the very reason why it needs to be taken out of party politics and given its own cross party specialist comitte made up of plenty of front line staff and nurses who can say what it's really like.

That’s the standard technique ofprivatization: defund, make sure things don’t work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital.

Noam Chomsky

www.thenational.scot/news/18255016.revealed-links-conservatives-private-healthcare/

www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/revealed-the-links-between-tory-mps-and-the-people-profiting-from-nhs-privatisation/22/12/

I'd be happy to pay more if it went to the right places.

However for the past 20 years I've paid for health insurance and used private GPs, only using nhs for emergency care. I'm not rich my any means, I just prioritise paying for the insurance.

I look at threads like this and see that the government has achieved its long term goal: starve and strip the NHS; make sure the consequent failings are so highly publicised that they become part of an accepted narrative; sit tight and wait until thoughtful, educated people like those on this thread see no realistic alternative to the end of our beloved NHS; send in some horror show like Dodo Harding with a ‘fundamental restructure’ that will ‘save the day’... I’m just waiting for the announcement this year that our ‘world beating Health Insurance Scheme’ is being rolled out. It is Better Than European Equivalents, Based on the Principles of the NHS...
we’ve been played, skilfully, slowly, and completely

This. Many years ago I took part in some lectures and training days by govt bigwigs aimed at showing nhs staff how to privatise themselves and hire their expertise back to their own dept.

“Social enterprise”.

It was accepted then that the current government was throwing money at the NHS, not to improve or save it, but to show it didn’t work as a business model, no amount of money would save it and helping the staff take control in the form of these “social enterprises” was basically an acceptable form of privatisation.

Bearing in mind this is 200-2010 so under labour?- they were seen to be increasing NHS budget, but with the end goal of privatisation.

The nhs doesn’t need more money. It needs all the dead weight cutting away and taken back to basics. Stop with all the hiring and contracting of external bodies. Bring everything in house again.

@Cattenberg has a very good point. Put simply we pay less per head of population than many developed countries. Direct taxation is only one way of funding it though, there are plenty of hybrid insurance type models. I think that people in the UK often feel more ok about direct costs (so willing to pay for health insurance but not higher general taxes) as they don't agree with government spending choices. They want their tax to be spent how they see fit not on fecless benefit scroungers, people who drunkenly use A&E, criminals or foreigners. They see services 'the country' education and healthcare going to hell in a hand cart and wonder where their 40% tax revenue is going. Trouble is the answer to that is in big complex macroeconomic and social changes that have left the UK lagging behind many of our peers, we have an aging population, poor health, massive inequality, poor housing and too many low paid insecure jobs. All these things have a massive cost to the country and of course the NHS. But we are too short termist to address these long term problems so instead healthcare and education gets batted about like a political football and no political party ever gets on with dealing with these massive structural problems. If it were me I'd pay more (tax or insurance not bothered which) but I'd want a more representative political system first that allowed government to work collaboratively on long term problems (and possibly attract a better class of political leader too).

I’d happily pay tax if it was streamlined and the pen pushers and bureaucrats were removed. Also if they stop providing any treatment that’s medically unnecessary.

Yes! Those of us who can afford to should all pay more tax to have better public services that benefit us all and create a better society.

Also if they stop providing any treatment that’s medically unnecessary.

what kind of medically unnecessary treatment does the NHS provide? Many people cannot even get what is needed in time.