Would you pay an additional tax for the NHS?

[Whatisthis543]

I’m torn on this one, surely our taxes should cover a well funded NHS but it seems that they don’t...

Is that systematic I.e too much bureaucracy and poor allocation of resources (within the trusts and elsewhere) or is there genuinely not enough money with an ageing population and rapid growth?

Answer the questions.

If taxes were increased for those earning over £100K and continued to rise progressively, wealthy people would still be wealthy and our healthcare system could be better funded.

The top 5% already pay 31% of all direct tax revenue. I imagine as a demographic, they also take the least out from the system too. Do you think that’s an unfair contribution? How much more would you like them to pay?

No way but I'd happily support a £5 charge to see a GP. It would need to be paid by everyone over the age of 18 though, no exceptions.

@GarlicMonkey

No way but I'd happily support a £5 charge to see a GP. It would need to be paid by everyone over the age of 18 though, no exceptions.

They tried to do this in Hungary. There were protest to abolish it even before it actually started. Never made it into reality.

I agreed then, and do now it would be a good thing though.

@Iamthewombat

Estimated 40,000 nursing shortage. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54844786

I've been watching with interest so will now be interested to hear how you might suggest filling that gap. This is, of course, a substantive shortage. If we train just enough to cover people retiring then the actual shortage does not get addressed.

@Iamthewombat

No. I pay an enormous amount of tax like everyone else in this country

I bet that you don’t, even though you think that you do. Income taxes in the U.K. are relatively low compared to most European countries but you still hear people whining that they pay too much or ‘an enormous amount’, as in this example. For those people, any tax at all is too much. Until they themselves need public services, of course.

I'd like to see many changes and tweaks before I did..

I’d happily pay tax if it was streamlined and the pen pushers and bureaucrats were removed

Here we have the type (and there are many more on this thread: I’ve just picked two examples from this page) who think that they should be allowed to redesign the NHS, from a position of zero knowledge of how large complex organisations work, and cannot see that a service serving a common need cannot be personalised to suit the individual wishes of every selfish person who wants world-beating care but doesn’t want to pay for it.

Thank god for @camoflaguesocks. She’s the poster who actually works in the NHS as a senior nurse and has given us a sensible, balanced view.

Thank you :-) I'm run ragged today at work so only just seen this

I think those running it should be Medics, nurses or other HCP’s that are also commercial. Run programmes that allow them to go and work in McKinsey etc so they can gain skills in running organisations while having a Medical background.

I don't know about forking out for consultancy firms without clinical expertise to teach the NHS how it should be done. The level of misinformation is incredible.
Who do people think runs the NHS and NHS trusts? Every NHS trust in the country is run by an executive team who area accountable to the Board. Every trust has a Medical Director - who is a senior doctor. Every trust has a Director of Nursing or Chief nurse - who is a senior nurse. Every trust has a CEO - many of whom are doctors or nurses. Most trusts have a Chief Operating Office who was often a clinician previously.
Below the executive team are usually triumvirates who include a medical lead and a nursing or midwifery lead.
Who exactly are all these pen pushers?

no you could throw money at it all day long . Funding is a small part of the problem not the main one.

@rwalker

no you could throw money at it all day long . Funding is a small part of the problem not the main one.

Really? What is the evidence for this? How does it compare internationally? What is the main problem? Should it be able to offer more services and with better outcomes for much less money than comparators?

I would prefer a European style system (Swiss for example). I think the general feeling around the NHS is that we are lucky to have it and we must not ever question it and feel grateful for whatever scraps we are given from it.

I think good healthcare is a human right and we should be aiming higher than what the NHS provides. I'd be happy to pay more tax for a better NHS or pay more into a more European style system. I would want the service levelled up for everyone though, not just those that can afford it.

I have had very few positive experiences with the NHS, especially maternity care and feel that there must be a better way. I do greatly appreciate all of the hard work of the staff though.

Cherry - have you not read the thread ? There is information from Nurses, Doctors, IT specialists, and all sort of other staff and consultants, not just patients, on all sorts of examples.

2 big ones being really poor IT and the fact the NHS is set up in different Trusts who all operate separately and with different rules and systems.

The NHS is very efficient. No doubt about it. The problem is perception

Or all the examples on this thread. Go back and look at Kazzyhoward 's example. Sounds exactly the same issues as we had with my Dad when he was alive - no-one can 'talk' to each other.

Sorry, I can't remember the name of the poster who described her experience in France where all the information about yourself was scanned on to your own card, and your GP would be able to 'read' the information the consultant had added the week before.

I've posted this before, but, when my dd broke a bone and was taken to the nearest hospital to where the accident occurred, we asked if the 'follow up' to A&E appt could be at the hospital 20mins away from us, rather than an hour and a half away where we were at A&E. They were both part of the same Trust. We were advised that this wasn't possible, BUT she could go and present herself at A&E at our local hospital and then get her follow up appointment there . Her saga goes on with SO much waste. Everyone who presented to X-ray had to have an appt in the following week. Gets there and the consultant said didn't need to see her - carry on with what she was told at the A&E appt...... why not look at the X-rays on a Monday and then call in patients they need, rather than the default of making appts for everyone and then not needing them ?? Then, the letter sending for follow up appts. They send a letter (not yet heard of e-mail or even text ?) - with map and with letter translated into other languages, automatically, allocating appointment. dd couldn't make that appt so phones up to say but they can't look on a calendar and offer another, they have to send out another (again by post with all the additional paper). After she attends that appt, they tell her she needs another one in 4 weeks or whatever it was, but she can't make an appt at the desk, when she has her calendar in her hand, she has to wait for them to send another appt, in the post with all the additional paper again, and it is at a time she can't do again, so rinse and repeat. Yes "only" a few ££ wasted, but start multiplying this by everyone that needs appts at hospital, every time, when there is no need.

A fe years ago, my ds had o go to a physio outpatients appointment over a series of (Winter) months in a brand new hospital. It was sweltering in there. Everyone who came in - you could see having to strip off and carry layers with them. All the staff were in shirt sleeves, and sweating. When asked, they said it was permanently too hot there, but "it had to be hot because it was a hospital and some people were in beds". This was a brand new building - why wouldn't you zone the heating so it could be a different temperature in out patients from that in the geriatric ward or maternity ward ?? he hundreds of thousands of £££ that is being pumped out, making people uncomfortable by having the heating on too high all the time, is ridiculous.
Each and every one of us can go on and on about inefficiencies. NHS staff I know are in despair.
I don't understand how anyone can try to claim the NHS is not inefficient.

Iamthewombat

Estimated 40,000 nursing shortage. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54844786

I've been watching with interest so will now be interested to hear how you might suggest filling that gap. This is, of course, a substantive shortage. If we train just enough to cover people retiring then the actual shortage does not get addressed.

I am laughing, a lot, at the notion that I am responsible for working out how to recruit 40,000 extra nurses.

I said, upthread, “spoiler: I don’t have a foolproof plan for running the NHS on a shoestring whilst delivering European-level care”. Why did you think that I would? Is it because I had the temerity to suggest that we shouldn’t give every nurse a massive pay rise, immediately? Or because I asked too many difficult questions? Or because I destroyed Baycob’s badly thought out and self-serving arguments?

I wouldn’t have Matt Hancock’s job for all the tea in China. Imagine having to deal with all this, and more, every day.

However, since you ask I’d probably encourage some of the retail workers who have lost their jobs this year to consider retraining. According to BBC news, almost 180k people were made redundant from retail this year. If you can convert 22% of those people into a nursing career, which will be better paid than retail and offers better benefits, job done.

Absolutely NOT. If they paid less to those on the board and agency nurses there’d be a bit more money to go round.

I've read the thread and am fully aware some people tell horror stories but I deal in fact. Undoubtedly it is not perfect but its a whole lot less disjointed than a wholly private system and a whole lot more compassionate than places like America where the service is very good ......if you can pay.

Anecdotes are not evidence. They are a few stories. The NHS makes mistakes but so does CVS health and United Health Group. In 2012 there was a scandal around outbreak of fungal meningitis back to the contamination of medication administered as epidural steroid injections in the USA. In 2009 PIP implants from a French company caused alarm and necessitated further surgery for many women.
No system is infallible but ours is the most efficient worldwide when considering cost/spending per person and the range of services provided.
The odd nurse saying its dreadful whilst not actually understanding the funding levels doesn't change that.

Whats the frontline NHS workers views on Chris Hopson

And if you're holding France up as perfection, ask the parents of children with SEN how their needs are met. The expectations in the UK far exceed those in many other countries.

We don't leave people without lung transplants because they can't pay. We offer terminations freely and don't have access determined by the religion of the local hospital provider.

If we don't invest, we are never going to have the same outcomes. If we rely in a private insurance system, it will be much better for many but not all and will cost each adult more - albeit not necessarily in tax.
Switzerland has mandated private insurance. It is very expensive - there is no government funding of healthcare in Switzerland. How many want to pay directly for themselves and their children?

I think its currently around £360 pounds a month. For a single mother with two children that would be around £12,000 although I think premiums for children are slightly less.
The NHS is around £4,700 a year for taxpayers, but of course, non taxpayers don't contribute. In Switzerland everyone pays, so the cost is perhaps more fairly distributed to everyone rather than just those in employment.

@iamwombat

Well you questioned my arguments and I just couldn’t be bothered replying to you because you are arrogant and rude.

You also assumed I was a nurse looking for a pay rise.

France averages £22 per GP visit but you can claim back about £14.50 of that. You pay about 65% of the costs of most vaccines and about 30% of the nurse or doctor's cost for administering it. You only pay 20% of hospital costs but also £18 per night for hospital stays. More often than not, a majority of consultants in hospitals (particularly within 'private' hospitals) will impose dépassements above the official rate, which may amount to several hundred euros for a minor operation, rising to potentially £1000 or more for more complex treatment. You will need to either meet these from your own pocket, or through a voluntary 'top-up' health insurance policy.

NHS access starts looking good if your income is at the lower end, doesn't it?

My friend had a brain tumour and was admitted to the local hospital. They treated her for a few weeks but ultimately she needed more specialist care than they could provide. She should have been transferred ASAP to another nearby hospital which had more specialist staff and equipment and could offer that care. But she wasn’t transferred and she sadly died.

The reason she wasn’t transferred? Because of rivalry between hospital trusts. Our hospital trust didn’t want to admit they couldn’t offer that level of care and didn’t want to admit defeat by transferring her to a neighbouring hospital trust. The inquest into her death is still ongoing. And this is one of many reasons why the NHS needs an overhaul.

Well you questioned my arguments and I just couldn’t be bothered replying to you because you are arrogant and rude.

No, love, you lost the argument and didn’t have a comeback. I wondered when the insults would start: that’s a sure sign that somebody is on the ropes.

You also assumed I was a nurse looking for a pay rise.

I did. That’s because you concentrated on nurses in your arguments and advocated for pay rises for nurses.

Anecdotes are not evidence.

Well, actually they are. It is one very potent way of collecting information for lots of inquiries - asking people for their stories. Yes, you need a lot of data to add to that, but the point is here, on this thread, people are being accused as "believing the propganda" so some people have started to say, no, actually, I can also give examples from my own life. Of course one person's story is just that - one person's story - but the point is, virtually every time I either have an encounter with a hospital (my own appts or supporting family members) I see a vast amount of waste and inefficiency.
I also see incredibly dedicated staff doing their best in a far from perfect structure almost all of whom are incredibly frustrated by it.
I am 100% appreciative of the NHS. I am SO glad I live in the UK, but this thread was asking if we would pay more to fund the NHS, and, overwhelmingly posters are replying that they don't want to continue to have money wasted, they want the system improved.

BackforGood Yes, I can see your point but I guess mine is anecdotal evidence (and yes I agree numerous stories that can be checked out do provide evidence) that is opinion based rather than factually accurate risks us losing something valuable.

Those wanting more don’t understand that it’s very difficult to get more for less. The whole pen pusher nonsense is just that. Everyone wants continuous improvement, but that tends to cost money that people don’t want to pay.

Suspect the government will create an asset tax to pay for all of this.
It's already been talked about. So if you own 100,000 in assets then you might be charged, say 2%

@Iamthewombat

I'm not sure whether you meant your 'I am laughing' comment to sound as sneering as it did. But you asked

*How would you get more permanent staff?

In which disciplines?*

The fact that you asked a follow up question suggested that if you got an answer to it you would have something else to offer. When it was answered you laughed at people instead. Not sure what that is about but it's certainly not helping any genuine exploration.

I agree Cherry. When the concept of the NHS was first muted, and when it was first set up, of course no-one would have considered the phenomenal amount of advancement in medical knowledge and the things we can do in 2020 (probably should say 2021) that wouldn't even have been considered even as a dream in 1945.