Hospital staff, tell us the reality

[Ihateme]

I’m am so fed up of seeing people comment on here that schools should be going back, that people should not be reporting mass gatherings in tier 4, how dare people begrudge a child their birthday party etc...

The hospitals are in a worse state now than they were during the first peak. Would any doctors or nurses care to confirm this? Maybe then these Mumsnetters will get the message.

There have been amendments to the way data has been reported and my point is that the high level of data reported by multiple media outlets without breakdowns of data, e.g. age, co-morbidities etc is irresponsible. Irresponsible journalism. Check all facts. Cite. Validate.
And for those of you who are clearly insulted by what I'm saying, I think you've misunderstood my points. You seem to think I'm a denier. Nope. And I'm not trolling. I'm asking questions. Trying to learn.
Debate/question/discussion is ok.

cbt944:
Eh??

@gingas

There have been amendments to the way data has been reported and my point is that the high level of data reported by multiple media outlets without breakdowns of data, e.g. age, co-morbidities etc is irresponsible. Irresponsible journalism. Check all facts. Cite. Validate. And for those of you who are clearly insulted by what I'm saying, I think you've misunderstood my points. You seem to think I'm a denier. Nope. And I'm not trolling. I'm asking questions. Trying to learn. Debate/question/discussion is ok.

I don't know why you assume the rest of us don't do that?

I always go back to medical papers and source data and have been doing so since mid-January before the media here were even paying attention!

All of the info you are looking for is readily available with links on the Data thread on the Coronavirus topic here as I have noted previously.

Find the thread, look at the first post. All the links to source data are there.

Here is the link to the latest data thread. It's been running for months and months...

Daily stats, numbers, data thread 28 Dec www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4118120-Daily-stats-numbers-data-thread-28-Dec

Hello, Mrsthreads140906
Your message was so kind and thank you. I just can't commit to one news outlet for aforementioned reasons.

Far too many posts on here that I want to acknowledge, so will have to settle for a collective “thank you” and sincere hope that you are looking after yourselves too.

As others have said before, not sure how else to help - but wish I could. My life changed a few years ago, so lockdown hadn’t felt too different - had to try to adjust my mindset quite a while before a huge chunk of the population. It’s totally crap, I get that, but reading these accounts hammers home how important it is - am totally in awe of the progress made on the vaccines, just a bit longer to hold out to help all on this thread start to see a reduction in numbers.

If there was a dedicated fund, where it was absolutely guaranteed that all money would go to the right place, then I would happily give 10x the £3 vaccine cost to it. Half as a pot to distribute to all frontline staff as a bonus (which sounds crass, they’re not in it for money, but hopefully the sentiment is understood) and the other half to funding new medical staff for the future.

@gingas

Hello and thank you for this, StopOvaryActing. Why doesn't the media break this down? Where are these scenarios broken down and easily accessible for the public? I simply want to do my research. Thank you

Honestly? I don't know. I'm a doctor, I know little to nothing about media and why they do things in the way that they do, sorry.

BUT I can help with your query about the vaccine though - I saw above you asked about whether the current people receiving the vaccine were being "Guinea pigs" for the virus to test its safety - this isn't the case I can assure you.

In the creation of a vaccine or a drug, researchers have to design and carry out clinical trials, and to pass these trials they need to test the drug or vaccine on humans to verify its safety (and compare it to a placebo). I actually used to be a medical statistician/researcher before I became a doctor, so I used to design clinical trials for new drugs and analyse the data to see whether they worked or not. To do these clinical trials, they recruit lots and lots of healthy adults with no health problems to test it out - THEY are the Guinea pigs voluntarily. Usually this process is slow going because there aren't an abundance of people who want to trial a new drug or vaccination, hence why some vaccines take 5 to 10 years to be developed! But, since we're in a pandemic, there were tens of thousands of volunteers who signed up to test the vaccines to help out. As an example, the Pfizer vaccine I think had something like 44,000 people included within the vaccine trial. That's how it was approved so quickly - lots of volunteers, lots of funding (often a lot of time is spent hanging around for funding applications in a typical, non pandemic situation)

So, they tested these covid vaccines on those tens of thousands of healthy adults, monitored them for a few months to see if they experienced any adverse effects, and found that it was safe to be used (and found that it prevented covid infection too) Hence it was approved.

But to ensure the drug is safe in humans we need to test on healthy adults before we start to test in other people like children or pregnant people.

So when they say "we will give it to pregnant people when it is deemed safe", they don't mean 'when the vaccine is deemed safe', they mean once they have evidence that it is safe to be used in pregnant women specifically. So, when they have tested the vaccine on pregnant women - in a similar process to the volunteer recruitment described above that they did on healthy adults - and hopefully observed that there are no adverse effects on the baby or the mother, they'll be licensed to issue it to pregnant women. Same sort of process will happen for children.

This is one of the most useful threads I've read about the realities of covid on mn. I wish more of these real life experiences were known about on social media where I hear such utter rubbish being said about the NHS.

There is no false reporting, I like so many others have lost to COV 19
and will be shielding for as long as I possibly can and encourage my
two adult sons to do the same. I spoke to doctors at the hospital and
learned that they were very concerned that many who get through are left in such a state that they wonder if they will ever be able to get a life
because of leaving them with a lack of mental capacity and lack of
lung /air capacity with so much lung scaring.
The staffing of wards, care homes and A&E will never ever be the same, wake up to reality and help progress take place by passing on the message that we all need to take extra care by thinking of keeping distances and masking up, handwashing and keeping
dogs on leads in case they become carriers, also wear throw away gloves after dealing with dustbins and deal with rodents.

@gingas

People keep going on about 'facts'. Where are you getting YOUR facts from exactly? The media?? PLEASE.Do you simply turn on the Beeb and take it all as gospel? I hope not. I will say that I'm very confused by it all. Because I read/listen to everything I can, from as many media outlets as possible (in an attempt to be INFORMED). So l kind of envy those of you who clearly know what's going on without really thinking, and harshly judge those for suggesting things/having opinions other than your own. But...having studied 'the 'news' as part of my degree and having worked as a journalist, I'll say this: DO NOT BE SO NAIVE AS TO THINK THE NEWS IS 'HONEST'. I could go on about that, but anyway... My brother is coming to the end of having Covid (at least he tested positive for it just before Xmas, as has his wife; kids are fine) He's 56, is mostly healthy; normally doesn't get colds, flu etc, but said it was like a bad flu for 10 days. He doesn't understand why the world has been shut down for this. I'd argue to him that that not everyone might get off so lightly. But actually it seems that most do... So wtf is going on? Why are so many more victim groups being created by the global shutdown to protect a tiny victim group? Another brother of mine who's a nurse argues that it's mostly to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed. So why oh why don't our governments pump the (seemingly printable, but let's not get into THAT) money INTO THE NHS and get back to some sort of normality?? And why are intelligent questions and alternative opinions to the mainstream news being censored? Oh and did you know that viruses mutate? So, like flu, I imagine we'll have a few C-19 variants. We gonna hide forever? Or start pressuring governments to put money into nursing banks, field hospitals etc etc ? Cmon people!!! Stop watching the 'news' and write to your MPs, councils, GPs etc. Get the NHS more financial support. Oh and btw... not everyone on YouTube is a nutter, for all you judgers out there. Shane on you. Yes there are many loonies out there. But not all. Use your intelligence. Do your own research. Many reputable medical folk whose opinion differs from our government advisors just can't get a platform on the mainstream news. Ask yourself why (and no.. I'll remind you..the answer is NOT because they're nutters). Amen

When your close family members have survived covid, it is sure easy to think about the situation the way that you do. Maybe you should for one minute put yourself the shoes of my friend who lost two brothers to covid (one a medical doctor) within weeks of each other in April of this year.

But I can't help but ask, where do you get your figures from? Are you sure they are properly quantified as COVID being the cause of death?

Mine come directly from daily calls reviewing the latest DoHSC data sets with variance and plans reviewed by including senior clinicians from each Integrated Care System and regional commands. I’m on leave this week so reliant on a deputy reporting the call to me. Unless every trust in the country is lying, unless the databases are entirely corrupted, my figures and situation knowledge is current to within six hours. I too believe in facts, numbers and the need for firm evidence and assurance.

It’s really not as simple as pouring in money. An intensivist takes a minimum of around twelve years to train; there are no shortcuts. A critical care nurse needs at least five years of training including postgraduate qualifications. We can’t magic up staff from thin air.
Dilute staffing skill mix and outcomes worsen.

Yes others are suffering because of restrictions but nowhere near as much as the 70k who lost loved ones as a direct consequence of the virus. That number is probably underreported as we only reference Covid19 as a cause of death as attributable up to 28 days. There are plenty of people dying who succumb to the virus after the 28 days.

@gingas

Hello and thank you for this, StopOvaryActing. Why doesn't the media break this down? Where are these scenarios broken down and easily accessible for the public? I simply want to do my research. Thank you

Its December 2020. The day before New Year.

Asking NOW for data and saying 'prove it' isnt acting in good faith.

Its not sincere. And its disgusting behaviour which does a massive disservice and shits all over people who are working in hospitals to deal with it.

Honestly if you are shouting 'prove it' at this stage, you are devoid of brain power and humanity and i really can't help you.

@IndecentFeminist - When you questioned if the picture in your local hospital was not what the OP wanted to hear, I took it to mean that you thought her opening statement was incorrect/that you were trying to discredit it. Your suggesting that my comments were a 'narrative' also seemed to suggest this but I'm glad that I'm wrong as that must mean that we're all in agreement. :-)

@gingas

Hello and thank you for this, StopOvaryActing. Why doesn't the media break this down? Where are these scenarios broken down and easily accessible for the public? I simply want to do my research. Thank you

Guidance for doctors completing medical certificates of cause of death in England and Wales This is the guidance that doctors follow.

Writing a death certificate is a careful process. The doctor will sit with the medical notes to establish the chain of events and formulate cause of death. Sometimes it is very straight forward. Often, on ICU, junior doctors will consult their consultants at to what order diseases should feature on the death certificate. In more difficult cases, consultants will discuss the case between them. In cases where cause of death is unclear, the death was sudden, or the patient died within a short time of arriving at the hospital, they will refer to the coroner, who will either authorise the issuing of a death certificate or order a post mortem.

It really isn't a case of 'shove Covid on there and add it to that pile...'

I agree with all your posts @RedToothBrush. It's always interesting to me that minimisers bleat on and on about how we all get our facts from MSM and don't bother to do any actual research like they do, about how we don't even bother to listen to all those 'reputed experts' on YouTube out there who challenge the narrative. We're the sheeple, after all, and they're the special ones who know the real truth.

It's scary. It's a whole lot like brainwashing.

The facts are there to see, on PHE, ONS, reported clearly and regularly. You don't have to look too hard, yet people don't look at all when there's some bloke on FB who says hospitals are EMPTY and nurses are just dancing all the time.

@Madhairday

I agree with all your posts *@RedToothBrush*. It's always interesting to me that minimisers bleat on and on about how we all get our facts from MSM and don't bother to do any actual research like they do, about how we don't even bother to listen to all those 'reputed experts' on YouTube out there who challenge the narrative. We're the sheeple, after all, and they're the special ones who know the real truth.

It's scary. It's a whole lot like brainwashing.

The facts are there to see, on PHE, ONS, reported clearly and regularly. You don't have to look too hard, yet people don't look at all when there's some bloke on FB who says hospitals are EMPTY and nurses are just dancing all the time.

And they tend to post late at night and into the early hours.

Despictable.

One thing I fail to understand is why people choose not to know the truth of what’s really happening, opting instead for conspiracy theory nonsense. Take “covid is being exaggerated in the media; all the hospitals are empty!” Why would they be? Who is organising the supposed lies that hospitals are under pressure? Who would benefit from those lies? There is never a reason so I can only assume that anyone believing that rubbish is acting on some kind of perverse avoidance of the truth. People prefer the thought that they are being lied to and secretly everything is okay. It was all just a dream ...

@TheLittleDogLaughed

Conspiracy theories are psychologically comforting as a master plan is less terrifying than the reality that we have little control.

Ultimately goodies can defeat a conspiracy. No one can defeat random events.

Basically, we are all shitting ourselves and conspiracy theories are the way some people deal with it!

You are probably right, inquietant - quite offensive to those dealing with the real life horrors of all this though.

@inquietant

Basically, we are all shitting ourselves and conspiracy theories are the way some people deal with it!

Pretty much.

But in the process they both prolong the problem and make it worse.

Because they are selfish and want to live in lala land.

And it is selfish to want to live in a fantasy land rather than in reality because of how it affects others.

I agree, to be told you are lying having witnessed this pandemic's effects firsthand must be so upsetting.

@inquietant

I agree, to be told you are lying having witnessed this pandemic's effects firsthand must be so upsetting.

And it doesn't matter how much evidence you show to the 'Prove It' Crew. Its never sufficient for their requirements.

Its a level of proof they dont require for any other subject either. (and thats the big tell).

That's so true. And it's like there's a script that they all have and keep coming back to, basically like a form of brainwashing and they keep sharing these 'safe facts' they just know, like all the with/of crap, the empty hospitals and the whole old and sick only dying argument. It could make for a fascinating social study thesis in years to come. Very sad though and very offensive to those on the front line as you say.
I wonder if it's something in the way our brains work too. So 50% of us prefer to deal in facts and truth, finding the whole hiding behind lies thing intolerable and baffling, we find it much better and safer for our mental health to face facts. And maybe the other half cannot cope with that and so construct the fantasy and then go out and find all these articles and videos which confirm it for them and maybe makes them feel safer, but then also very angry at those who are telling the truth because they don't want to hear it.

The two will never be reconciled.

NHS front-line (ish) in London.

Experiences in local hospitals varies around the country depending on local case numbers which will at least partly account for some of the descriptions of empty hospitals seen on MN/in the MSM. Additionally, fewer staff due to illness, fewer or no visitors and lots of cancelled procedures means that the hospital corridors are quieter than usual.

However, in general hospitals are struggling. Covid admissions have risen sharply and in many places are close to / above levels in March & April. It feels more geographically spread now, so individual hospitals may not have greater numbers. Admissions for non-covid problems have not stopped as they (largely) did in the first wave. This puts significant pressure on beds. Of course, given the contagious nature of covid, a good proportion of those being admitted for non-covid problems are contracting it once they are admitted. With significant numbers of asymptomatic patients bringing it in from the community, there is no way to guarantee that you will not catch it whilst in hospital.

I am not ICU based, but echo the experiences of those on the thread that are. Our ICU and many others have doubled, tripled or quadrupled their activity. A large number of covid patients are not in ICU beds per se, but being managed in normal ward beds or escalation areas with staff who are not normally used to looking after such patients.

It is dire in London at the moment; and I’m sure elsewhere too. Significantly over capacity, over-stretched staff and services and many, many people dying. Often these patients are confused or disoriented, and frequently die alone, having not been able to see family at all in recent weeks or months. We try to facilitate video calls to families where possible but many patients cannot engage with the process and some families find it (understandably) distressing.

I do agree that lockdowns have a significant impact on other aspects of people’s health; delayed diagnoses and mental heath issues in particular. The absence of lockdown however would mean that hospitals would be even more overwhelmed with covid patients and therefore even less likely to be able to deal with everything else. I don’t know what the answer is, but right now it is not a good time to be ill or need hospital care.

I would urge everyone to do whatever they can to avoid getting ill & to follow the rules to the best of their ability to allow us to get through this as quickly as possible.

Thank you to my fellow nurses / midwives / doctors / paramedics and others on the front line in this fight (police / fire services / transport staff etc). I hope we all get safely to the other side