“He wouldn’t be where he is if I hadn’t sacrificed my career”

[BooFuckingHoo2]

I am expecting a flaming for this .

AIBU to think this is often untrue? I know many men with stay at home wives and kids who, in all honesty, whilst happy to have kids (because the wife does all the wifework) would probably have been equally happy with either no kids or extensive wraparound childcare and an equally high earning wife.

I often see it trotted out on here “I sacrificed my career to look after our children” - but the for the majority of women (aside from some exceptions e.g. husband working abroad) I’m sure it was a welcome choice and not something they were strong armed into. In my experience (unless childcare costs eclipse the wife’s salary) the husband is usually indifferent (aside from the wankers who want a trophy wife) as to whether the wife works or not.

Equally “he wouldn’t be where he is in his career if it wasn’t for me”. I’m sure there’s a small minority of women who’ve accelerated their husbands career but I think for most, they’d have been the same with or without their wife, although granted possibly with no children or higher childcare costs.

AIBU?

It depends. In my situation I don’t think my husband would be where he is now if he’d had to take on an equal load of the home and childcare. We had twins, childcare for both was extortionate. We have no family help, so I had to give up my job (where I’d progressed up the career ladder for 10 years) to stay at home with the kids. This has given my husband all the freedom to start up a successful company, but it’s taken years to actually earn decent money. If I’d had to work and pay out childcare, we would have struggled to have any spare cash to put into the business and he would have had to share finishing early for pick ups etc when he’s really needed to put in the extra hours.

But then another family for example, may have free childcare from parents, or some free childcare and only one child to pay nursery fees for. So in that case maybe they didn’t need to give up their career. It just depends. Not something you can generalise in my opinion. In some cases you may be unreasonable and in other cases you may not.

@ShirleyPhallus

It’s rather depressing to see how many women don’t have a career of any sort before they have children. Then once they’ve had them they have no “work” to get back to and are pigeon holed as a SAHM.

I think that can be a real issue

A friend keeps telling me she can't work- children have left home- as the only type of job she could get is shop work. But that what what she did before she married her dentist husband- but now she sees it as below her.

I agree with you and had independently thought this already.
I've seen both friends and family members using being a SAHM as a welcome escape from having to go to work.

It depends on the circumstances. DH’a ex would try to claim some nonsense about how she gave up a career and he’s done so well. Except that she was desperate not to work and never wants to work again. And he had to give up a job with travel to take a local one - with a £30k pay cut. He still wasn’t earning as much as he had been when they split up. So she’s objectively not facilitated his career.

He’s actually been able to take on extra responsibility since we’ve been together and been promoted 3 times. Partly that’s because he’s not the only earner for the family (I have a well paid job) so he’s able to take risks he wouldn’t have. And also because we have childcare, and no one is expecting him to be home early to take over from an exhausted SAHM etc.

OTOH, my friend got married and her DH kept getting jobs in different countries. She could never get a work permit and her career died. They never had children but his career definitely benefited from the sacrifice of hers. Their divorce settlement reflected that.

People have different circumstances so what you say is undoubtably true at least some of the time. But you’d be wrong some of the time too.

I don’t agree myself that women have 100% equality but the responses did open my eyes as I’d assumed after lurking on here that most women felt that giving up their career was a sacrifice (albeit a ‘worthwhile’ one) rather than a luxury/goal. All considered, you’d certainly struggle to find a thread on any forum with so many ‘men of leisure’ saying that they happily pursue their hobbies while their wife brings in the money.

I do think there's a weird cognitive dissonance where lots of women say that being at home is loads harder than working, that they've made a huge sacrifice but they'd never consider swapping. It was quite funny when DH and I did shared parental leave, some of the comments I got when I went back to work and he was at home from women who until then had maintained that maternity leave was the hardest job in the world -'won't you resent him when you're getting up and going to work every morning and he's still in bed?', 'don't you feel you'll really miss out?', 'I'd never give up my leave like that, it's the reward you get for being pregnant and giving birth!'. In general it was so eye-opening and depressing how many women told me openly that they'd never 'let' their partner do it - in some of those cases the man in question had said he'd like to do it but his wife wouldn't let him, which I had dismissed as self-serving nonsense until the wives confirmed it.

There are always sacrifices to be made, even when both of you work.

I work in the medical profession, my husband too. There is a pay scale in place that apparently avoids discrimination based upon specialty, gender etc. However this is how things have gone:

We started at the same point on the pay scale, and theoretically continue in the same point. We have used a lot of childcare too. But there are always, always, extra meetings that start after 5pm, or that run late, or the meetings that require unpaid preparation at the weekend. One of us has to be there when the childcare closes, has to be there for the kids at the weekend. One of us has to say no to all the extra professional stuff essentially.

We’ve talked about it, considered sharing this burden, and ultimately agreed it made more sense for one of us to take the hit and the other to continue moving forward.

We remain on the same pay scale, but he gets the discretionary points, the credit for extra work, the promotion into management positions, and he is most certainly earning more than me now, 3 kids down the line.

By your example @BooFuckingHoo2 he has been (?we’ve both been) quite happy for both of us to continue to work with childcare and everything else...but make no mistake, his career has progressed beyond mine and he is earning more because I have taken the hit, because I make sure I am there at 5.59pm to collect the kids. And yes, he most definitely wanted children too. I consider the extra income that he earns family money, only achievable by him because someone else (me) picks up the slack in our family life. And that’s hard work too.

I see this all pattern around me. Medic-medic marriages are pretty common. I bet this exists in law and other professions too.

I’ve also sat on discretionary point panels too (that award bonuses for extra work out-with the usual job plan) and am aware that these bonuses are very much skewed toward men. Women just can’t add on extra work when they are (usually) the one who has to run to pick up the kids on time.

The differences in earning potential are not limited to SAHMs. Women may well run the world when it comes to anything important, but it appears this doesn’t come with an hourly rate.

I haven't sacrificed a career as such, more the potential to have one. DH is 9 years older than me and was already on an established pathway when we had DC. I've had alternating periods of being a wohm and sahm, none of them careers - just jobs I could do for a while then drop during periods when family life was too demanding.

DH has worked away a fair bit over the course of his career and had times when he had to see something through until 9/10pm at night. He's in IT so it's just the nature of what he does.

What really tipped me over the edge during the times I left a job wasn't really the juggling ordinary childcare and housework ( I had a childminder and cleaner during working periods) it was having a DC with SN, similar to the poster above whose child was forced out of mainstream. In the end it was missing work for appts and school meetings plus my childminder saying she couldn't manage his needs any longer that did it. I haven't worked for nearly six years now although before the pandemic I was hoping to return to something this year or next.

I'm sure there are women who actively want to be sahm's to high earning husbands regardless of circumstance but IME the majority of us just muddle through making practical decisions that fit their family best and for some women that works out and for others it most definitely doesn't. Knowing you are reliant on a man being a loyal husband and decent father is a precarious place to be.

I've often pondered whether I would have been happier if we both had lower paid jobs and juggled equally to make things work but I can't really know that. I do know that we are fortunate as a family that DH has had job security during this pandemic which he might not have had if he didn't do what he does.

If I had a do-over there are certainly things I would do differently but who knows if that would have been any better in the long run?

I was a training spouse with a husband who got itchy feet on average every 18 months and moved us across state snd international boundaries - if I asked about things like my own pension, continuing education etc I was sit down with claims that we couldn’t afford it. Abd then he dumped me m, homeless, with our child whilst he fucked off with another woman, in another country, liquidated our assets, sbd then built a business with her whilst I had to start again from nothing.

He now tells our son I kept him in poverty so I could claim benefits whilst showing him what he missed out on

Yours damned fucking right I helped support what he’s got now.

You are obviously being unreasonable and probably don't understand what is involved in certain careers.

No one is going to be prepared for their kids to be raised by nanny's all week. Seeing no parents all week, never having anyone at their school plays, never having a parent put them to bed. You'd also have to pay two full time nanny salaries unless you have someone on standby to pick up sick kids and to stay overnight when you're travelling.

I have no idea if some guys aren't bothered either way about having kids but I certainly don't know any dads like that (actually I do possibly know one, don't know him well enough to be sure though) not the majority though.

We were a team and when we married nearly 30 years ago I was earning about £120k; and had been working for 12 years; he was in the v early years post pupillage. I owned the house etc, and had the family money. When we met he had been on the point of giving up due to sheer lack of funds.

By the time we married the fees were just materialising. But the time DS1 was born after 2 MC's he was pulling down two thirds of my income DS1 was poorly as a baby and after 8 months of being the world's most unreliable employee I resigned. Truth be told I was close to burn out and only wanted ever to be a mummy.

I was enormously privileged due to my efforts and DH's to have the most glorious 7 years at home as a SAHM, notwithstanding two more MCs and the birth of ds2 whose heart issues were incompatible with life.

DH, in those 7 years forged his career and was able to do so because I shouldered the parenting and domestic load. There were periods when he worked from 7am until 10pm relentlessly, periods when he was in the UK less than overseas but the load we each took was always equal.

When dd was settled at school I got a part-time job on £7.5k per annum. After two years and a promotion it became full-time and I took professional qualifications and then a Masters but for as long as the DC were at school I worked locally to be on hand. And we continued to shoulder an equal load.

I honestly believe that there can only be two big careers with highly paid resident childcare and family back-up. I'm not sure that is best for the children and can think of very few families where it has been a success.

We have been a team and as part of that team we have recognised each others strengths and played to them where necessary. I think our marriage and the dc have benefitted.

I know someone who said this when going through divorce, her exDH is on a higher than average wage (not super high) wage. She had 2 part time jobs, years before she had kids, I think I stood there in shock when she said it as she has always moaned about working (worked in a supermarket together when we were students). She used to tell everyone that she wanted to be a SAHM and her exDH found its stressful being the sole earner but she would be at home for her DC (they were young teens then).

I also know of someone who gave up a well paid public sector role when she had DC, but she admits she was never going to go much higher as she didn't have the drive. Her DH is a high flier, but weirdly she has never made this statement. I suppose in both of these cases you don't know what goes on behind closed doors...

Incidentally I definitely think that motherhood can be a great 'excuse' to not push on your career, and I'm guilty of that myself. I never said it but also let everyone assume that having had children was why I left academia for a less demanding and more stable career, when the truth was I'd been unhappy with the hours I put in and the lack of progress I felt I was making for a few years. I definitely felt that downgrading my career because I had children was more socially acceptable than admitting that I was maybe just not up to it and so had been really struggling.

Well I think you mean that a lot of these successful men would have been happy for their wife to work AND take all the responsibility for the children.

If they really had done half the pick ups / drop offs / sick days / school concerts and organisational tasks it might well have been detrimental to their career.

Men often want to have children too but it serves their interests to pretend it's just an expensive hobby of their wife's.

Also many jobs involve moves - sometimes international. How would that work with two careers. In my husband's office there is literaly no one who has a spouse working ina similar field. It just wouldn't work. Even the two gay guys who don't have or want kids have a stay at home partner (or one who works part time). Kids or not, most people don't want to be lonely and past a certain age with a demanding job they want all the other stuff (social life, choice of house, choice of holiday etc) sorted out for them. DH is unusual in that I work almost full time but we have family help. No way could it work without that.

OP what about the women who are covertly strong-armed into this as soon as a baby comes out? With wife work, a lot of them think it is their choice and it might appear so on the surface too. But is it really?

Yabu, in many cases the high earners require full flexibility in their career which requires the partner to either have no career or one that allows childcare and household management to facilitate the high earner's flexibility etc alongside having a family.

So no it does not support the career, it enables the career and family to take place alongside each other.

In my case it would have been practically impossible for my DH to build his start up into a multi million pound business without a person able to always be available, able to make major decisions when he was at equally crucial meetings and ensure our DC were kept alive for no financial outlay since, in those early years, we lived hand to mouth reinvesting every penny back into the business. To any observer I was a SAHP and I certainly did not have a salary.
I know of many women who are unwaged and are mothers, therefore classed as SAHP, who are an imperative back up to their DH in businesses such as agriculture and hospitality.
In most cases, when the business becomes large and successful, the SAHP will take on a paid role within the organisation.
For these reasons I vote YABU.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland I know that if course! I’m not saying I’m NOT CEO due to my kids, I’m saying that actually there is a fair shot I could get there as it’s the next step, but there is no chance I’d be able to even try due to the sacrifices my children would have to make.

There are very few very very top level jobs that would be a healthy balance with very small children and no other parent to keep the home running. Using it a case in point that yes in some cases the other parent has enabled the career chances of the other.

Where are the figures on divorces because I think that would show how highly men regard wives and children.
I think women take their children into the next relationship whilst men carry on with whatever career they have and find a new family.

A key example would be my uncle actually. Both him and his wife were barristers - met at work. Both wanted kids. The agreement was that they'd have two kids as close together as fertility allowed, she'd have a two year career break then they'd both take a slower career path and also have a nanny.

In reality during the two years (which became three because the second child didn't appear instantly) his career was very very successful. He then decided unilaterally it wouldn't make sense for her to go back to work because it would mean a drop in household income. They had plenty of income but he liked ski trips and nice cars, wife wasn't that bothered and wanted to work. Since he didn't help with the kids basically at all she was unable to return to work properly and her career never really got restarted (although she has always continued working). They divorced when the oldest had just started secondary.

His narrative is that she's a gold digger by wanting the main family home and maintenance for the kids. He also wants to have access to the kids as and when is convenient to him at the last minute and considers her very unreasonable for wanting a definite schedule so she can plan work and other comittments. He also only wants weekends, never school drop offs or evenings when homework needs to be supervised etc. He would tell anyone who listens that his career had nothing to do with her.

I haven't sacrificed a career as such, more the potential to have one. DH is 9 years older than me and was already on an established pathway when we had DC. I've had alternating periods of being a wohm and sahm, none of them careers - just jobs I could do for a while then drop during periods when family life was too demanding.

So this is interesting @OvaHere because this is exactly what I’m talking about. What were you doing job-wise before you met your husband and decided to have children?

Well, equally these men needn't have had kids at all if they used a condom.

Given that they didn't, someone has to take the hit when a child is sick or needs picked up.

If men aren't prepared to divide these responsibilities with their wives, then someone has to pick up the slack, short of hiring a live in nanny, that means the wife cutting her hours or compromising somehow.

Nobody forced these poor men into procreating.

Of course, if the man likes none of these options, this brings us round full circle to the original point, which was that he should wear a condom.

Nobody forced these men into procreating

I think this is a very grey area.

When I met my husband i earned double his salary, he had no desire to move especially upwards but after I got pregnant I was relocated to another city (was on the cards before pregnancy) this meant him leaving his job. We talked about him being a sahd. Over time our roles have reversed.

Now he has an amazing job. Possibly because I’ve continually encouraged him??? 🤷🏼‍♀️ All I know is he would never have applied for his current role or any of his other roles if I hadn’t of encouraged him.

Also babies were very much something he wanted, he broke up with his exW because she didn’t want any, he would also have had more. Our last one was very much his idea not mine.

I will happily admit I definitely wanted children and I loved the thought of being a sahm. But I would have happily stayed in my previous job, I loved it especially when I returned after baby #1. Since being a sahm though, I don’t know how easily I’d find going back to work.

He’s definitely not tied down and had I returned to work our children would have been in childcare up to 10 hours a day being cared for by strangers so we could have a few extra pounds at the end of the month. Now 2 are in school, I take them to school, pick them up, look after them, I go (pre Covid) to all their school assemblies, events, I take them to the park after school, let friends come over for play dates after school, I’m involved in the school. If they are sick I’m there in 15 minutes to get them and take care of them...

We don’t have the luxury of family to do childcare, even before Covid, it’s either we do it or pay strangers. I know which I prefer.

@BestOfABadLot

A key example would be my uncle actually. Both him and his wife were barristers - met at work. Both wanted kids. The agreement was that they'd have two kids as close together as fertility allowed, she'd have a two year career break then they'd both take a slower career path and also have a nanny.

In reality during the two years (which became three because the second child didn't appear instantly) his career was very very successful. He then decided unilaterally it wouldn't make sense for her to go back to work because it would mean a drop in household income. They had plenty of income but he liked ski trips and nice cars, wife wasn't that bothered and wanted to work. Since he didn't help with the kids basically at all she was unable to return to work properly and her career never really got restarted (although she has always continued working). They divorced when the oldest had just started secondary.

His narrative is that she's a gold digger by wanting the main family home and maintenance for the kids. He also wants to have access to the kids as and when is convenient to him at the last minute and considers her very unreasonable for wanting a definite schedule so she can plan work and other comittments. He also only wants weekends, never school drop offs or evenings when homework needs to be supervised etc. He would tell anyone who listens that his career had nothing to do with her.

This x 100.

@BooFuckingHoo2

What makes you think you know more about other people's relationships and careers than they do themselves? What vested interest do you have in devaluing the SAHP's contribution to the family? Is it that you have a somewhat desperate psychological need to vindicate your own choices?

Silly comment. I don’t think I know more, I was asking for opinions . I also have no wish to devalue SAHMs - I think SAHMs can be great, but that isn’t the point of this post. Also I don’t yet have kids so no choices to validate

Not at all surprised you don’t have kids OP, comments like this is what I probably thought before I had them: Playing devils advocate, emergencies aside surely he could have hired childcare for school drop offs/pick ups?

The first six months my twins were at nursery, at least one of us was sick at any one time for over six months. Then they both got chicken pox one after the other - literally an entire month where one of them couldn’t go to nursery.

When they were born, one was in NICU for two months, then just after he came home he got very sick and was admitted to paeds HDU for nearly two weeks and needed a parent there 24/7 - DH had to take 2 weeks off to care for the other twin at home.

They both have disabilities and there are countless hospital appointments, therapy appointments, home visits. TAC meetings, the EHCP process meetings and the tribunals I had to get through, then when they started at school we had to take them there and back (its a long drive) at first, although now they travel on transport. In their first five weeks they’ve needed to be picked up early twice. There are no holiday clubs and there’s no wraparound care for disabled children here, it would mean paying for two carers - and people think childcare is expensive!

DH simply couldn’t do his job full time if I were out of the house working full time. They also need a lot of input and care, which is exhausting and challenging (they are still awake now for example).

DH massively appreciates how much work it is taking care of them and making sure they get everything they need.

Perhaps if you have one child, family help in emergencies / when they are sick then maybe, but if there are any health issues and you have medical appointments and therapies to deal with, let alone the lack of suitable childcare for children with additional needs.

I haven’t sacrificed my career - I was already self employed working flexibly before having children, but the work I do taking care of our kids definitely enables him to be a reliable employee who can progress in his career, and he has always worked from home so he has more flexibility than most. It would massively impact his work though if I weren’t here to go to all the appointments and take care of them during school holidays, when ill etc.