Pre schoolers with SEN and education/early years settings funding

[rabbitheadlights]

I'm here looking for your advice/experience

2.5 yr DS has no definitive diagnosis as yet, he is suspected to be ASD/GDD/SPD.

He is non verbal and seems to have little recall.

He has an early years portage referral and I have managed to secure 15hrs per week funding for nursery as well as some extra funding for 1/1 support but I don't know how much.

He currently attends an independent day nursery that 2 older DC attended.

They are a lovely nursery however they don't seem to want DS there and I need to check if maybe I'm expecting too much.

Funding was paid from 1/9/20 yet DS wasn't allowed to start until 22/10. When he started it was for 1hr per day for 3 days a week (so12 hours less than what is funded)

It was supposed to be 15 hrs a week term time but they have since said 10 hrs per week but all year. That's not a problem.
They have stiulated he must do Monday's and Tuesdays.
However now they are saying his 1/1 funding which is on top of the 10 he per week funding doesn't cover the whole time he is there so he cant do a full session which is 8-1. He has to start at 9.30 and be collected at 12.30

So on top of being forced to have Monday's (so losses 8 sessions per yr due to bank holidays)

He's now only allowed do do 3 hrs of a 5 hr session so losses the equivalent of 1 session per week.

So overall of the 520 hours he gets funding for over the year he is actually allowed to attend 272 hours?

I feel like they are taking the P* but I don't know??

They’ll be in bother. The LA will audit his attendance and if they claim for more than he attends they can ask for it laying back.

Can you email them?

But I can confirm the finding is less than half of what it costs to have a child that needs a 1:1 if they’re in the same boat as my nursery. Each of these children costs us a fortune.

Thankyou @thehop I just want him to get the most out of being there, I have no idea how to help him, I want him to learn and have fun and right now all I'm getting is ever increasing meltdowns, and with covid he's not seen anybody face to face (as in Peads etc) since Nov 19

They definitely need to explain their reasoning. It’s not okay and will cause problems when they’re audited for funding.

It also isn’t fair on him in terms of continuity, when that’s what they’re promoting with stretching the funding to year round. Also, Monday and tuesdays is too close I think.....he needs to be stretching attendance more and doing say Tuesday/Thursday or Tuesday/Friday so no big gap before he’s back which will mean resettling each visit. Makes no sense.

Thanks in your experience would a mainstream nursery rather not have children with SEN?

Do you have access to an Opportunity Group pre-school? They may be in a better position to help you with getting EHCP set up before school etc?

It's just a feeling I get almost like he's too much hard work ? And if as you say it costs them a fortune to have him there? Will they not resent him being there!

You need to ask why

I have no idea @reefedsail I thought ehcp's were applied for by the school ?

Are there any maintained nurseries in your borough? I work for one and they are fantastic, not just with children with additional needs but also their senco is amazing at getting ehcp in place before school starts etc. A maintained nursery has to have qualified teachers on staff as opposed to private day nurseries which are just childcare. Might be worth a Google :)

I would find another nursery that us willing to work with you. I work in a private nursery we have had children with Global delay, with physical disabilities, on the autistic spectrum. With and without a one to one.

@Nsky I have they say he can't be there at the start of session so 8-9.30 and end 12.30 - 1 because his 1/1 funding doesn't cover it. Although they do get standard funding for those hours

@rabbitheadlights no, EHCP can definitely be put in place before school, and if you think he will need one it is a very good idea. You will have a wider choice of schools and access to school entry meetings etc to make sure the school hit the ground running with your DS.

I think you’re expecting too much by complaining about the days you’ve been offered, it’s completely normal for nurseries to only be able to afford certain days for part time children.

Unfortunately you’re right and many nurseries would prefer not to have children with SEN, not because that’s their ideal, but because they genuinely don’t have the funding to provide the level of care and education that they are want to and are expected to. It’s true that even though they have been given funding, it won’t match the actual costs incurred so of course they would rather avoid the problem. It doesn’t mean they think less of you or your child, it’s just a sad fact, that isn’t their fault, that they aren’t funded fairly.

Thanks everyone will look into some of things you have suggested i.e maintained etc ... Unfortunately I'm very clueless with all of this and I really feel like I'm letting DS down along the way.

@rabbitheadlights EHCPs can be requested by the parent, your local authority will then write to the nursery asking for their “advice”, which is them basically writing the EHCP. This can take hours, so you may want to inform them that you are doing so (it’s very difficult if you suddenly get a request in and have 2 weeks to write it without warning!).

Just check what they have applied for in terms of funding. Have they applied for additional funding on the basis that he is on a part timetable with a view to building to full time? (In which case that may be getting full time funding still.) I’m not an expert in nursery high needs funding as I’m a school SENDCO, but I’d ask what additional payments they applied for and actually were awarded.
Final thought- was the delay in starting because they needed to recruit a suitable candidate? If not, why the delay?

the LEA will have a senco that should be checking in with your nursery and seeing what progress they are making, I would contact her/him.

I am a nursery SENCO and although he rules are different in different areas my experience may help you a lot. Generally the additional SEN funding per hours does not cover someone’s wages per hour. This means the nursery are topping it up or are using someone they are already employing as opposed to an ‘extra’ person. The later start could have been to allow other children starting in September to settle so that your child could be given full focus in supporting his settling in. I have also been one to start small and build up but not too slowly, it need to be at the child’s pace- this can be different from the parents pace (not saying that’s the case here). We have also had to offer certain sessions due to the staffing situation- we cannot have more than one child needing 1:1 a session as it’s impossible to meet heir needs effectively. This said, I work in a setting where we welcome children with SEN and do as much as we can- and I know this isn’t always the case as I have heard so terrible stories (usually from parents who have moved hem out of settings). My advice would be to discuss these issues with the settings SENCO, there may be genuine reasons for some of the issues you’ve raised here. That conversation should give you peace of mind but if it doesn’t then you need to consider your next move. Do you sign a funding agreement each term? If so check the hours are correct to ensure they only claim what your child attends- in my area the SEN funding amount is set according to how many hours the child attends. Communication is vital here and whatever the reason you must never feel like your child is a burden or isn’t wanted anywhere and if you aren’t happy you need to move elsewhere

@rabbitheadlights let me know if you want any info I can hopefully help guide you

This is hard. On you, on your son and on them.
First things first. You need to get to grip with the lingo and be clear about what support it is you've got and how much. See info below.
Then. Are you claiming DLA for him? If not get started on that. It's a truly miserable form to fill in (took me 60 hours) but worth doing. You may also thdn be able to claim carers.
If you have extra £s coming in then you could pay for the extra time at nursery. Yes you shouldn't have to but get used now to balancing fairness and what your kid needs.
Be really clear about what your son needs. Is the extra time beneficial or neutral or detrimental.

From the Internet:
Organisations that can help....
There are several organisations who can help you challenge your child’s school or education provider, or the local authority:

Your local SEND IASS (Information, Advice and Support Services) are there to advise and support disabled children and young people and their families. Find your local service at IASS Network.
Contact have specialist education advisors available on their helpline on 0808 808 3555.
IPSEA also offers advice on your child’s rights, and resources to help you challenge education providers and local authorities.
Cerebra’s Legal Entitlements Research Project helps families of children and young people with special educational needs who are experiencing problems with education services

Finally . Its so hard when you start feeling your kid is being rejected however nicely.

Hi very similar story to my DS my nerves were shredded constant meltdowns feeling we caused so many problems always having to sign off paperwork re Ds' behaviour daily funny looks from staff and other parents horrid feeling staff asking if ever disciplined him etc, questioning parenting. We also had portage support.

The best thing I did was get the EHCP rolling before school it was sad, so stressful but worth it to get everything in place. Also like pp advised apply for DLA.

It's a rough time but school has been a little easier so far because all measures are in place. Best of luck

In my experience owners can resent these places as they operate at a loss financially and take a lot of staff/management time to do the paperwork/lease with other services. It’s also a pain for some owners to have other agencies coming into setting.

Actual staff? No. We don’t mind a bit and welcome any quirks or additional needs with open arms. Children are children and we do our best to show them all the same regard.

Sorry it's feeding time at the zoo here ... But just quickly we do get higher rate DLA and I have offered to pay the difference for his 1/1 but was just told they would look into it? Which further prompted the feeling that they just think he's too much. Thanks @picak will read that properly shortly.

I have two DS with ASD who were both non verbal at nursery. We got similar levels of initial funding to you and then started the EHCP process when both were 3. Our youngest had his EHCP in place for 6 months at nursery. I would definitely suggest getting going on your EHCP ASAP - we had an educational psychologist visit both in the nursery setting and write a report which was really helpful in getting the EHCPs.

Having said that, it doesn't sound like the nursery are particularly supportive. It was a long hard slog getting ours through nursery and that was with a really supportive nursery. The nursery SENcO did all the 1-1 and she was fab. Is it worth looking at other settings? We have one in mainstream school and one in a special school now.

All the best.

@lifeispassingby if you don't mind once the DC are settled this eve I may well ask for your thoughts on a few things? Thankyou all so much for responses, I will answer all properly as soon as I get more than a minute x

As a mother of an autistic child and as a former TA working with groups and one-to-one at a special school here in London, I would confidently say 'go with mainstream nursery'. Why? Because SENCO support tends to be much better at state nurseries attached to mainstream primaries, plus nursery teachers are actual teachers, more than a cut above most private (for profit) nurseries. Private nurseries are mainly about profit, but they do accommodate working families better.
But if you really want your child with special needs to get the best support possible and to learn how to not only interract with but thrive in a world that isn't quite shaped for him/her, the right choice would be state school with a nursery attached, plus an on-site SENCO lead. It's a no brainer.