Pre schoolers with SEN and education/early years settings funding

[rabbitheadlights]

I'm here looking for your advice/experience

2.5 yr DS has no definitive diagnosis as yet, he is suspected to be ASD/GDD/SPD.

He is non verbal and seems to have little recall.

He has an early years portage referral and I have managed to secure 15hrs per week funding for nursery as well as some extra funding for 1/1 support but I don't know how much.

He currently attends an independent day nursery that 2 older DC attended.

They are a lovely nursery however they don't seem to want DS there and I need to check if maybe I'm expecting too much.

Funding was paid from 1/9/20 yet DS wasn't allowed to start until 22/10. When he started it was for 1hr per day for 3 days a week (so12 hours less than what is funded)

It was supposed to be 15 hrs a week term time but they have since said 10 hrs per week but all year. That's not a problem.
They have stiulated he must do Monday's and Tuesdays.
However now they are saying his 1/1 funding which is on top of the 10 he per week funding doesn't cover the whole time he is there so he cant do a full session which is 8-1. He has to start at 9.30 and be collected at 12.30

So on top of being forced to have Monday's (so losses 8 sessions per yr due to bank holidays)

He's now only allowed do do 3 hrs of a 5 hr session so losses the equivalent of 1 session per week.

So overall of the 520 hours he gets funding for over the year he is actually allowed to attend 272 hours?

I feel like they are taking the P* but I don't know??

It feels as far away from a "no brainer" as is possible every single thought I have is consumed by the fact that I have no clue what I'm doing, what he needs, how to help him, what causes his meltdowns, why he can't talk, do they just not like him, do they just think he's too much hard work.... It really doesn't feel like the answers to any of those are a "no brainer" it's so nuanced and I'm so scared of making the wrong decision for him and then for him not to be the best most happy version of himself that he can be it's just a minefield.

We went for a private nursery rather than one linked to a primary school. All the nurseries linked to primary schools in our town insisted on the children being toilet trained and didn't seem particularly interested in working with us on provision.

OP I work in a Nursery and can confirm it is the shortfall and complex funding that is the issue here. For Nursery to be able to provide for your DS they need to have a good ratio which will be determined by extra funding, any additional staff available ( probably that is why you were offered specific days) as well as taking into account any other SEN high need children in on that day. EHC can absolutely be started now. In my area the Nursery start this process with support from Portage. DLA funding may mean you can access 30 hrs ( BUT the extra funding for SEN is sometimes capped at 15 in some areas). The issue with the universal 15 hrs is that is gives you a standard session with standard ratio of adult....which is not adequate. Inclusion funding should be applied for to top up. Also regarding your offer to pay for that top up yourselves. We are given a clear message from our LA that this is not allowed. Nurseries should NOT be charging top up funding for SEN to the child's parents, which is difficult if there is a shortfall. Things like lunch breaks for the 1:1 are difficult because they are not covered but you need to continue to support the child. Essentially you are talking about an SEN place which looks different in terms of cost and structure of support. That may help to think about why it can't just be 15 hrs each week. I have been open with parents and given them a break down of the costing to help with an understanding of how it works. Keep an open mind regarding school and look at all options for best specialist support & provision. Good luck and hope it goes well

@mollymopple we weren't entitled to the universal 15 hrs had to apply to the council once DLA was approved, they have also got inclusion funding but I don't know how much.

My offer to pay was for the difference after 15 hrs funding plus inclusion funding, though I didn't know they s wasn't allowed

Ah of course, I re read your post that he is not 3 yet. Universal funding comes in from the term following their 3rd birthday but some 2yr olds are also eligible. I have recently been informed that 3 yr olds with DLA are eligible for 30 hrs though

In our area Universal is approx £4.20 per hour and Inclusion is £6 per hour. Once the children join the 3yr old ratio it is one adult to every 8 children, so the inclusion funds are crucial.

Is the inclusion funding given for the full hours?

I run a private nursery and have worked in many others. I disagree that it’s a ‘no brainier’ that a child with SEN will be better off in a nursery attached to a school, I think it really varies depending on the nursery and it’s hard to generalise. We are known throughout our local area for our SEN provision, so we have a lot of experience, but even for us the ever changing paperwork and funding situation is hard to navigate. If you feel that the nursery isn’t welcoming towards your son then maybe it isn’t the right setting. We go to great lengths to accommodate every child, but often at a financial loss unfortunately.

@Mollymopple 3 year olds with dla are not eligible for the 30 hours if they wouldn't qualify without it.

Funding is a nightmare. My 4 year old is due to start school sept 2021, we are due final decision about issuing ehcp in a few weeks but I applied myself to get the ball rolling. If he gets DLA have they done the disability access fund? Its £615 nursery can claim to support the child.

His nursery also isn't attached to a school and have gone above and beyond BUT their staffing levels are such that there are 20 children for his session but 7 staff which I think is well above ratio?

It certainly isn't a 'no-brainer'. Please don't take what TheVanguardSix says as gospel.
It is definitely not the case in my LA. Quite the opposite in so many cases.
Every school with a Nursery class, every stand alone (maintained Nursery School, and every PVI setting is individual. There are excellent ones in each category. There are poor ones in each category, and, overwhelmingly, there are all the other settings who are doing their best in a very underfunded area.

Because SENCO support tends to be much better at state nurseries attached to mainstream primaries

This ^ is DEFINITELY not universal. PVIs regularly pick up children from schools that have reduced the child's hours to 1 hour a day

@rabbitheadlights

Is the inclusion funding given for the full hours?

Inclusion funding is now given for every hour the child attends but this has only recently changed in my Local Authority (used to be capped at 15). We have to apply to the panel every 6 months to renew the claim.

That’s really shit, OP.

DD, who has very complex needs, was in two different private nurseries (we moved areas) and there was no question of her not getting her full funded hours or of the nursery being reluctant to have her. I’d be looking for a different nursery.

As for the EHCP, it depends where you are. Both the London boroughs we’ve lived in wouldn’t give EHCPs to children younger than 3, and one of them would only do the assessment when a child was preparing to go to school. Up until that point, the child would get High Needs Funding and another one-off disability payment (whose name I forget) for the nursery to buy equipment.

Mumofsend 7 staff to 20 children does sound like they are well over ratio.

It is all about context though....you don't count any volunteers or students in the ratios. Supervisors & managers are not always counted. Any 2 yr olds need a 1:4 ratio ( even if you only have one 2yr old) and then any SEN children that you might provide 1:1 for. Funding is at a flat rate but you may have graduates, teachers etc on a higher salary which can squeeze your budget which will determine the ratios you can provide. Sometimes the maintained Nurseries have less adults because of salary costs yet I can have a lot of expertise where they are teacher led.

I don't have experience of this as a parent but I teach in a special school and see children coming to us every year from settings where they clearly weren't welcome. If it were me I would move my child to a setting that behaved as if they wanted them there. Maintained settings are not necessarily better than private settings, and in my area you won't find a teacher-led nursery class taking children as young as yours, they are only for the year they turn 4. But that may be different in other areas.

I have just downloaded the self referral form for EHCP ... I don't think I would even be able to fill it in, I feel like I don't even know where to start, i.e it asks from the child's perspective what makes me happy? And my initial response is nothing! But when I still down into it I can think of little things like the baby shark video because he loves it but equally some days he absolutely hates it and goes into a screaming rage which takes hours to come out of? How do you word things like that so that somebody who doesn't know your child will understand?

Whilst I'm not sure any type of nursery is universally better or worse, some individual settings are definitely better at dealing with sen than others. If things are not working out at the current nursery, don't be afraid to move, or a least have a look at other options and see what's availablein your area.

My DS is 4 and currently been assessed for autism, he moved to a school nursery in September and they have been absolutely fantastic. They paid for his 1:1 out of the school budget for the first few week while they were waiting on his funding application, they've started him on intervention programs and have been great at working with professionals for his diagnosis and EHCP application.

In contrast the private nursery he was at before that, while lovely, were out of their depth with him. I don't think it was deliberate but in retrospect they could have done more, they delt with situations as they came but didn't seem to have a overall plan to improve things.

A lot of it probably comes down to experience, as the school will see so many more children, so probably had similar cases in the past. Though I also think the school have a bit more insensitive to help him, as they will probably have him for 8 years, so getting funding in place now and teaching him some coping strategies will be beneficial to them. Whereas the old nursery always new he would be moving on, so to them just muddling through until he was old enough for school nursery might have been the easier option.

@rabbitheadlights I am more than happy for you to PM me and if I cannot help I will do

If I CAN help not cannot!!

Inclusion funding is now given for every hour the child attends but this has only recently changed in my Local Authority (used to be capped at 15). We have to apply to the panel every 6 months to renew the claim.

Sorry to confuse you further Rabbit, but this isn't universal.

Nothing like that in my LA. The 'pot' is finite, so there is an application procedure and if you are awarded funding (and it is a big 'if'), then you get what was originally 1/2 the 15 hours (ie 7.5hrs) at £12 ph, which would cover costs if you had someone working PT who wanted a few hours, but wouldn't cover costs if you had to go to an agency for extra staff. (Term time only). S even if the child is there 50 hours a week, the Nursery can only get 7.5 hours of additional funding.

It really is no wonder at all that parents are confused. The only thing that is univeral is the fact there is not enough funding to go round. Everything else is different in one LA to the next. It gets really complicated when your house is in one LA and your Nursery down the road, but in another LA.

Will your portage support not help you apply for an EHCP ?
Again, in our authority, the Home visiting Team would support you through all that process. That said, they wouldn't be able to be involved if your child attended a Nursery.

Every Local Authority has to have SENDIASS (SEN/D Information, Advice and Support Service - they can help you.

Or do a search for IPSEA
or the charity Contact
or
SOS SEN

There are lots of helpful people on MN, and lots of people with a lot of knowledge, but things are so different, one LA to the next, people are kindly sharing what is true in their LA, which isn't true elsewhere, so it might not be helpful.

So if he gets 15 hrs per week funded plus inclusion funding what is the shortfall likely to be? If I'm not allowed to pay the shortfall as a fee can I get around it by making a donation??

It's not even really about him being there for more hours it's about him getting the most from it. Can he really be getting anything from 6 hrs a week as it stands??

Also maybe if they weren't at a financial loss then I wouldn't feel like they don't want him there??

I'd start looking for a new nursery op.