4yo behaviour

[Eryouwhat]

Aibu to ask for your suggestions of what to do?

4yo dd. Absolute dream at school apparently.

Doesn’t listen to me, dh, dgps etc when we’re out and about. Runs off, doesn’t come back, bolts into roads etc etc. Really struggling today as just had a nightmare trip to shops. Seemed to be surrounded by well behaved children staring round eyed at my screaming struggling whirling dervish. No sen.

What do you do when you’re out and about and they behave like this? I can’t cut trips short, I’m out for essential reasons and sometimes unavoidably have to take her. Everything I read say consequences for this age group should be immediate, so time out/naughty step/loss of treats when we get home etc are pointless

Please help!

DS was like this. I'm sorry to say but nothing worked, he just grew out of it eventually. It coincided with him having enough language to have conversations with us about imaginary stuff, sometime between 4 and 5 IIRC. I think before then we hyst weren't of much interest to him!

Solidarity! And remember the MN mantra, this too shall pass.

FWIW, DS was diagnosed with high functioning autism (what they used to call asoergers) aged 10, possibly something to be mindful of, just in case. It wasn't obvious till he was a bit older, but looking back it all makes more sense now.

Hyst = just

At 4, I would still be holding their hand anywhere near a road.

Maybe consider a backpack or wrist strap for now just for safety.

Incentivise following clear boundaries. e.g. walk next to adult and no shouting while out, then you can watch an episode of xyz when we get home.

Oh, I do remember one thing that did help. Not with the running off, but some of the techniques described in this book really helped with DS.

The one about giving them what they want in pretend-world instead of just saying no, for example, worked wonders with DS.

eg "I want that cake!!" "Ooh, I love cake too. Imagine if we could eat a cake THIS big every day! What if our house was made of cake?" etc.

Melt down averted. Magic!

www.amazon.co.uk/Calmer-Easier-Happier-Parenting-Revolutionary/dp/144472990X?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Neither Aspergers nor HFA is a clinical diagnosis and hasn’t been for years

Perhaps not, but HFA is the term that the specialist unit that diagmosed DS used, 2 years ago.

Rather than focussing on consequences can you focus on rewards/bribes?

"hold my hand while in the supermarket & you can choose a dessert for tonight"

"If you walk nicely we will have time for ths playground after"

Also try and think about what it is she is trying to do/what's her agenda, and meet that need safely? Eg my DD is younger but is a real bolter. But it's because I need to let her burn off that energy before doing boring errands, so I change the order around.

I also had a phase where I frankly wasnt making any time in the day for DS (4 next week) to do what he wants - too much being dragged around on my errands and not enough time for free play. His behaviour has improved no end now.

I remind my daughter as we leave the car that she must hold my hand and do exactly as I say. We did this today at the vets and two supermarkets. If she did not, I would be immediately removing her from the situation, she’d have her “thinking spot” back in the car and we’d do it all again. And again if necessary. Safety is always paramount and I need my child to be obedient regarding that. She is the only child holding hands outside nursery waiting, other Mums allow the kids to run around in the car park around cars and right next to a busy road. She does not like that she has to hold my hand, but tough. I’ve had a few children, some are easier at this age re safety some are harder but if you consistently insist on what you need it will come, if no SEN.

Ps at the moment surely the only place you can run errands to is the supermarket and you only need to do that maybe twice week?

Oh and I know the weather is a bit shite but both my kids really are utterly feral if not given enough time to play outdoors, year round.

Eh, it's not always a spectrum thing. My child who is on the spectrum is a dream in shops as its so interesting. The neurotypical one can be a right madam in them.

I'm afraid I just put them over my shoulder and march back the way I've come. And I actually do put them OVER my shoulder, kicking all the way. It's the only way to get a good angry march going towards the door.

I will literally abandon the trolley (hopefully it'll work and it'll only be for 5 mins).

You may be sure that they tearfully repent by the time we're at the door and you can make them say sorry and then continue shopping with a (hopefully chastened) child.

If they're a hard nut, I'd go out to the car and sit in it and say we're not going back in until they get some manners.

But then I've no sense of shame. My philosophy is, you're not gonna avoid the stares once the kid kicks off. It's inevitable. If people are going to stare, I'd rather they stared at me actually taking control of my child than staring at me wheedling a little monster who is continuing to scream the place down.

That was my DD at 4. Now an adult all that energy has been channeled into good use. Has several degrees, good career, massively helps people not as lucky as she is, has lovely loving partner. Every down has an upside (doesn’t feel like it at the time though). Keep on in there. Good luck x

I would say do everything you possibly can to avoid those situations right now. Nearly everything can be done online now. She obviously can’t cope with it so follow her lead.

If he listens at school but just not to you... id say he feels like he can act out with you. So you should def be firmer /stricter etc. Stick him in a pram. And if he doesnt want to be in it he should be stop acting like a bebe. See if he takes the hint. ..

No way would I be letting a four year old dictate whether I could run errands outside or not, as suggested by the above poster! What kind of message is that, if they can’t behave in public, they just don’t have to go out?!

It might not have ANYTHING to do with being on a spectrum, especially if they are so good at school, where there are boundaries and rules clearly in place...

I would not be letting go of a hand at that age so they wouldn’t he bolting anywhere, they’re too little to walk/run off independently and have little sense of impulse control or danger. I echo what a PP suggested- IF you walk nicely you can choose a pudding, IF you listen to Mummy you can watch Paw Patrol when we get home.

I have a jar that I put a gem in when the children have behaved as I have asked, just plastic brightly coloured things from Amazon, they love getting them and I use them as a reminder constantly when out that they will not be getting a gem if they don’t listen. Ten gems and they get a reward (it’s taking a long time though )

Disclaimer- not a mum, yet, though not for want of trying. Nanny for 10 years and a nursery worker before that.

I use a very firm clear voice too, just instructions without anything flowery or they tune out. Don’t plead or wheedle. Channel benign dictatorship.

Boundaries and being firm unfortunately. It’s boring and rubbish.
Also my 4yo would get very overwhelmed when out and it was busy. It was an absolute rule when both of mine were small that they had to hold an adult hand - all the time when in town or somewhere busy. DS1 once ran the length of London Bridge - DS2 was in his pushchair. I was very frightened by that and then he always always had to hold my hand.
In the park they could let go but before doing that it was clearly stated how far they could run to - x lamp post, tree or bench. Otherwise they got very distracted and would run off.
For shops either I or DH would go. And other parent would stay at home or take a quick trip to the park. If that wasn’t possible the trip would be as quick as humanly possible. With a reward at the end - small amount of chocolate or quick visit to the park/feed the ducks for good behavior. Depending on what side of 4 she is the reins are still a possibility. It does get better but it takes time. Ds 1 was 7 before he stopped getting overwhelmed in busy places/hating the shops.

Today probably wasn’t the best example to go by. My 4yo is normally well behaved but I as a beast in the shops today and had a mega meltdown because I wouldn’t buy her some crap. I’d try and look again in January and see if the behaviour is any better without the run up to Christmas.

Make behaviour expectations explicit beforehand, have consequences for non compliance, be consistent and always follow through.

I rarely make my 4 year old hold my hand whether on busy roads, walking to the park or on shops. I don't need to 98% of the time and use it as a consequence for not following instructions.

I explain what is expected before we leave the house/car/enter the shop. I give a warning for non compliance and explain what the consequence will be (it doesn't have to be big; it's more important that it's easy for you to do immediately) and then I enforce it if required. I try to use distraction in shops of they're getting bored (I also have a 2yr old) eg can you count the blue Ice creams?

The 2 year old is still a work in progress but we're getting there slowly

My 4 yo dd is the exact same and it’s because she is completely spoilt, not so much with things but as the only child and grandchild all attention is centred on her. The minute we have to do something “boring” she will start.
Perfect behaviour at school, actually she is starting to improve but still can have moments where I seriously want to check her head for 666!

[quote BuggerBognor]@fastwigglylines See

www.google.ae/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2012/dec/02/aspergers-syndrome-dropped-psychiatric-dsm

Any “specialist unit” using HFA to describe an autistic spectrum condition “in the last couple of years” really needs to catch up with clinical practice from 2012, stat.

HFA is actually the more offensive term.[/quote]
I don't understand why you shared this? The article is about the term Aspergers, it doesn't mention HFA at all.

I'm guessing, perhaps, that you see Aspergers and HFA as the same thing, and so it seems self-evident that an article about Aspergers is about HFA? That's not my understanding, though, and tbh I've never heard anyone have an issue with the term HFA before.

The way it was explained to me, Aspergers was seen as a different condition before i.e. in a Venn diagram there would be 2 circles.

But more recently experts have realised that it's the same condition. (Also Asperger himself was deeply unpleasant IIRC so it's an unfortunate connection).

So now, everybody gets diagnosed as autistic, which is also described as being "on the spectrum". The spectrum refers to different aspects of autism, it's not linear, i.e.it does NOT range from "not very autistic" to "very autistic" although this is a common misapprehension.

Nevertheless, some autistic people struggle more with daily life than others. Some profoundly, some not much all, indeed some may find ways to use autistic traits for their benefit (eg my mother who's autistic and has been pretty successful by pursuing a specialist carer where her autistic traits were a strength).

As I understood it, HFA applied to people like my mum and DS (and possibly DP), who don't struggle as much with daily life.

So, still autistic, the same condition and on that Venn diagram, a smaller circle within the autism, not a separate one.

I'm not trying to be difficult I promise. It's just I honestly had no idea HFA was considered controversial as I've not heard anyone say this, and the unit DS went to certainly didn't give me the impression they were using it in the same way Aspergers, a word I've never heard them use.

If we're not to use HFA, what other term can we use to describe autistic people who aren't as severely affected as those who are and who need a lot of support?

Baby rein back pack thingy and threaten with pushchair.

@fastwigglylines I think the problem has come about with HFA because some people took it to mean 'mildly autistic' whereas people can be profoundly affected by autism and struggle a great deal with daily life whilst not having any learning difficulties.

I've certainly never heard HFA described as offensive though, just perhaps inaccurate/ open to misinterpretation.

There are debates over every aspect of terminology used to describe autism, and no right or wrong- just different schools of thought and preferences.