To think retinol aged my skin?

[SweetLoveOfCod]

Hello. I’ve been familiar with retinol for probably about the last 20 years, know it’s one if the few things clinically evidenced to improve skin ageing, etc. etc. I know a little about how it’s said to work – thickens the dermis, thins the epidermis, etc.

I was prescribed some about 14 years ago (in my 20s) for acne and tolerated it well.

Last year, after finally sorting both an SPF 50 I was happy wearing every day and a good, plain, soothing cica moisturiser that would not react or trigger acne, I got myself some retinol serum to start with over the winter.

As I’m familiar with the product I know to expect a transitional phase and the product of course warns of potential irritation such as dry skin, peeling & flaking, etc. I started at once a week and progressed up to twice a week, never using consecutive nights in a row. Didn’t experience any dryness or flaking just a slight redness.

I noticed very quickly that my skin seemed to take on a crepey quality that I’d never seen before, however I found reports that this is just a phase and not to worry etc. Eventually I stopped, as I felt uncomfortable with how my skin was suddenly looking. It’s hard to describe, but the skin took on a slippery quality and it looked as though the top layer was sort of sliding over lower layers of the skin. Overall my face now looks more gaunt and less plump, and my skin feels slacker and more delicate. The structure of the skin seems to have softened and gone sort of ‘mushy’. I’ve got little pouches under my eyes that weren’t there before.

I’ve compared pictures from when I started using it with when I stopped using it, and can see a clear difference.

Needless to say I’ve stopped using it, however it’s driving me a bit mad – there is no warning of this sort of reaction anywhere, although there are anecdotal reports online. Clearly the way retinol works on the skin is complex and I’m also curious about what might have happened.

@Annoymou5e

I know it's not meant to.

May I ask what your expertise is wrt retinol?

It's a potent product with very complex interactions with the skin which are still not fully understood (although there is a good body of evidence for its efficacy in improving visible effects of ageing).

Its efficacy is down to the fact that it effects a deep-reaching change in the way the skin is structured.

What can be said with certainty is its effects on the skin go beyond the superficial.

What I experienced was nothing akin to 'being dry'.

I've detailed the rest of my routine in my posts – LRP cicaplast moisuriser at night and a simple moisurising lotion plus LRP SPF 50 in the daytime.

this is interesting.. I'm struggling with application order and what i really need tbh... so following with interest

@Photographsandsand, could you recommend any particular 'heavy duty moisturisers' personally?

Following with interest.

Is there any way you could post before and after pics blacking out your features? I also have trouble visualising the "mushy sliding over layers" thing

OP the moisturiser i swear by and that sorted this problem for me is FRESH rose. Its amazing. Its not cheap but not ridiculously expensive either, can't recommend it enough

I use Eucerin face cream with urea and ceramides and I love it

Thanks for the recommendations @CrotchBurn and @ForestNymph

@ForestNymph which symptoms did you have that were similar, out of interest? I'm really interested to hear more about what happened when you used it!

@crotch I don't think the slidy layers thing would show up in a picture easily – it's more apparent when the skin moves or is prodded, and has mostly gone now (I haven't used any retinol for many months). When I was first noticing it I googled what I was seeing and stumbled across something called 'epidermal sliding' – however I am not a dermatologist and have no idea if this was indeed what I was seeing.

The 'mushy' thing I describe I suppose looks like the same thing that happens to the skin naturally anyway over an extended period of time as part of general ageing – the skin is just sort of looser and less firm, the same sort of thing you see in middle aged faces compared to younger faces. It seems (to my inexpert eye) like a layer of cushioning has diminished – I don't know if it would be fat or collagen or something else. The skin is just sort of less plump and more wobbly.

I'll have a look and see if there are some pics I can post which illustrate some of the difference without showing my whole face!

Damn that sounds unpleasant 😐

And you're definitely sure that you arent just kind of way more watchful now/slightly paranoid about it?

But I see where you're coming from, it's a powerful ingredient so I guess in a sense - maybe it could cause damage?

@SweetLoveOfCod

Thanks for the recommendations *@CrotchBurn and *@ForestNymph**

@ForestNymph which symptoms did you have that were similar, out of interest? I'm really interested to hear more about what happened when you used it!

@crotch I don't think the slidy layers thing would show up in a picture easily – it's more apparent when the skin moves or is prodded, and has mostly gone now (I haven't used any retinol for many months). When I was first noticing it I googled what I was seeing and stumbled across something called 'epidermal sliding' – however I am not a dermatologist and have no idea if this was indeed what I was seeing.

The 'mushy' thing I describe I suppose looks like the same thing that happens to the skin naturally anyway over an extended period of time as part of general ageing – the skin is just sort of looser and less firm, the same sort of thing you see in middle aged faces compared to younger faces. It seems (to my inexpert eye) like a layer of cushioning has diminished – I don't know if it would be fat or collagen or something else. The skin is just sort of less plump and more wobbly.

I'll have a look and see if there are some pics I can post which illustrate some of the difference without showing my whole face!

It made my skin look kind of dull and saggy is the best way I can describe it. Bags under my eyes and really lacklustre. I was confused because I'm 26, thought it was from the kids stressing me out but figured out it was to do with my skincare. Stopped using it and have gone back to my normal stuff and my face looks better again.

Someone asked for pics, this is the best I can do given I've scribbled out my face and tattoos. On the left is me now, right is using the retinol. You can see my cheeks look sort of bloated and puffy. No weight loss or anything between these photos. Its just the retinol.

@ForestNymph it's hard to see anything from the photos but I take your word for it – I'm sure you you would know better than anyone. I can see that your face looks chubbier in the pic on the right. My skin 'plumped up' in a way initially (along with developing a bit of a pink glow), and whilst at the time it seemed like a positive effect (for my 30s skin!), I wonder now if it was just irritation associated with inflammation.

Some of the things you describe sound familiar – my skin went sort of 'puffy' in hand with the crepiness – like it was sort of looser and had this 'willowy' quality to it (getting really creative with trying to put this into words now )

I also developed bags which I have never had before. They're still there unfortunately and I fear it may not be as easily reversible for me as I'm a bit older. But does give me some hope to hear your skin has now gone back to normal! Mine has definitely improved and looks much more normal and healthy a few months on.

[quote SweetLoveOfCod]@ForestNymph it's hard to see anything from the photos but I take your word for it – I'm sure you you would know better than anyone. I can see that your face looks chubbier in the pic on the right. My skin 'plumped up' in a way initially (along with developing a bit of a pink glow), and whilst at the time it seemed like a positive effect (for my 30s skin!), I wonder now if it was just irritation associated with inflammation.

Some of the things you describe sound familiar – my skin went sort of 'puffy' in hand with the crepiness – like it was sort of looser and had this 'willowy' quality to it (getting really creative with trying to put this into words now )

I also developed bags which I have never had before. They're still there unfortunately and I fear it may not be as easily reversible for me as I'm a bit older. But does give me some hope to hear your skin has now gone back to normal! Mine has definitely improved and looks much more normal and healthy a few months on.[/quote]
Yes its hard to see but it's like my face went rounder but droopier, really hard to explain. It plumped it but in the wrong way? It didn't give me high cheeks or plump skin so much as just a swollen looking face.

I've done a load of face masks too which seemed to help.

@frostycaravan

Hello *@photograohsandsand* - do you think this Medik8 product be suitable for someone in their late 60s? Menopause has hit with a vengeance and my skin quite suddenly looks terrible, pigmented and uneven with enlarged pores. (Thanks for your other thread, I realise you're not a dermatologist).

And what heavy duty moisturisers would you recommend please?

Hello I am not a dermatologist is going to be written on my tombstone at this rate

Obviously the peri-menopause and menopause do effect skin but you know that already unfortunately so do I.

Retinol is ok to use at age 60, with all the usual caveats of start infrequently and on a 'low dose', carefully monitor the effects on your skin and always take care to use sunscreen every day when you are using retinol products.

There are lots of instances where cheaper skincare is as good as expensive stuff. However, through my own trial and error, I have found that with retinol products you do have to spend some money. Vitamin A (retinol) is a difficult product to stabilise.

Medik8 is the one that I have found to be most effective, Verso 3 is another good one Verso 3.

For heavy duty moisturiser I would recommend a thick night cream i.e. Burts Bees, Summer Fridays Jet Lag Mask or Lumene do a good moisturising night cream.

@Notimeforaname

I've often wondered about this. I dont really have a skin regime but have wanted to start trying some good quality retinol products. But I do wonder what happens to the skin. I appreciate you wont want to post pictures of your face here but am struggling to picture the issue you say you had (top layer sliding over bottom layer for example) I had started using a new serum a few years ago and my face got so dry...I suddenly had wrinkles I'd never seen before!! I stopped immediately. Is your recent retinol product new? A type you've never used before?

top layer sliding over bottom layer for example) The outer layer of skin does not go anywhere. It is what you see.

Thank you @photographsandsand - that's my new year resolution sorted 😊
Lockdown is a great chance to experiment too.

@SweetLoveOfCod

Thank you for your reply *@Photographsandsand*, I really appreciate it.

I'm interested to hear you've seen this before. When I mentioned upthread the skin is softer, I mean in a negative way – as in less firm, sort of squishy and delicate. It's like the structure has broken down in some way so that some 'stiff' engrained fine lines have dropped out at the expense of the firm structure of the skin – the contours have loosened.

That is absolutely crazy about the Ordinary formulations. That seems like a regulatory issue? Madness.

I started off at once a week and progressed to twice/3 times a week. Probably a few times I did every other night. At one point it seemed I had some irritation in one area (retinol 'burn' that people talk about?) so I immediately scaled it back again to less frequent use.

Because I used a prescription strength product many years back and tolerated it well, I started this time with one of the stronger formulations and was paying close attention for the potential irritation that is warned of – dryness, peeling, etc. – however I didn't experience any of those things. If there had been any mention or warning of the effects I experienced, I would have proceeded with far, far greater caution. 'Dryness and flaking' are such superficial forms of irritation, this does not represent at all the sort of potential for 'irritation' that retinol really has.

I was using LRP SPF 50. Anthelios on the eyelids and undereye, and the anti-shine one on the rest of my face. Maybe a few times I had tingling pink skin when I didn't put SPF on very first thing – so while I was indoors at home but getting indirect daylight on my skin through the blinds.

I always use SPF 50 whether using active products or not and throughout the winter.

Thank you very much for the kind recommendation! I've seen Alice Hart-Davis talk about this range and I believe someone else recommended this starter retinol, so that is really great to have that confirmed. I'm going to see a dermatologist shortly (and before using anything else) as I'm fairly spooked by the previous experience, but this is great information to have.

Do you happen to know anything about what is happening when this sort of reaction occurs?

Thank you for taking the time to reply!

Ah, I apologise, I misunderstood. A friend of mine used retinol and initially it worked like a facial peel, leaving soft skin underneath.

I understand why you would have thought 'I used it before, I'll be fine this time'.

If you search The Ordinary on here you will find plenty of threads discussing the quality issues around them.

@Photographsandsand

Yes, it was prescription strength and ingredients the first time so should have been stronger than what I used this time.

the usual caveats of start infrequently and on a 'low dose'

Why are people told to do this?

[quote SweetLoveOfCod]@Photographsandsand

Yes, it was prescription strength and ingredients the first time so should have been stronger than what I used this time.

the usual caveats of start infrequently and on a 'low dose'

Why are people told to do this?[/quote]
Because it is strong and you need to build up its use as it will irritate your skin at first. That’s basically how it works. It’s called a purge.

So you just use the moisturiser and that spf?

Do you buffer your retinol? What strength is it? Is it Tret you are using? Gel or cream?

You don’t have to be ‘an expert’ I read plenty of forums, follow Dr Dray etc been using Tret myself (o.1% gel) to figure stuff out.

"Tret" is "Tretinoin", the generic name for a prescription retinol product, for anyone who quite reasonably wouldn't know that.

I'm still not a dermatologist nor do I claim to be an expert on brands I haven't worked on. I can tell you about individual ingredients and how they work on the skin. For anything else I write from personal experience.

FWIW I haven't ever worked on Medik8.

I agree with Annoymou5e's questions.

You'll know that your skin changes over time. It may be that the tretinoin you used previously wouldn't be suitable for you now.

SweetLoveOfCod is your skin still showing signs of healing? Or does it appear to have stayed as it was post retinol use? If it's the latter please see your GP or send them the same photos if they are doing telephone only appointments.

I'm sure this goes without saying but please don't use any more retinol until your skin is completely healed again. I hope it's better soon and not causing you discomfort

Hi @Annoymou5e I'm reasonably familiar with retinols myself (as a layperson) and am actually quite concerned by all the unqualified advice thrown about casually in discussion groups. I have to admit I've done it myself in the past, likewise based on my own "research" and individual experience.

Obviously you can pick up lots of useful information that way (along with lots of misinformation), however I don't think reading forums qualifies anyone to say definitively what reactions may or may not be possible with retinoids. Lots about retinoids is still not fully understood at an academic level, so I think claiming ultimate authority on the basis of reading online forums is a bit of a reach.

I was addressing my question @Photographsandsand because I'm interested in the take on this from within the beauty/cosmeceuticals industry.

I use Super Facialist Retinol Plus. I really like it and have not noticed any of the negative effects described here.

I can tell you plenty about retinol, some of it professional knowledge and some of it amateur interest.

If you're asking for my professional opinion, I've already said this upthread and I'm sure you know this already, but retinol is unstable. So it really is all about the formula.

In your case I'd definitely say that if you don't see any improvement and soon the advice I would give a friend is definitely seek medical advice.

Thanks @Photographsandsand it seems to have gone a bit more back to normal half a year on, however some of the changes have remained (loss of volume, more delicate appearance to skin, etc.). I agree with what you say and have an appointment with a dermatologist, so will speak to them before using any other active products on my skin. I agree that at 20-something your skin it's likely different things will work with your skin than at 30-something, and I might well have had an adverse reaction using the same prescription product now. Impossible to know.

I've probably said it a few times in my posts so sorry to bang on, but something that has really concerned me about all this is the vague/non-existent information provided with the over the counter retinol product I used (and many others) and the way the potential adverse effects are glossed over simply as 'an initial period of dryness and peeling'. I used it very cautiously with high SPF and close monitoring of my skin for peeling etc. (I'm familiar with the whole idea of purging and pushing through the awkward stage whole a new, fresher layer of skin emerges). I'm quite curious as to how the potential risks are perceived by companies that sell the products and the industry at large as I know there are many anecdotal reports elsewhere online of the sort of effects I've described (which I discovered after using the product).

I'd also be interested in the instances you mentioned where you saw similar reactions in the past, although appreciate that you've already been very generous with your time and may have other things to do!!

Thanks again for your advice and taking the time to reply

Thanks @CounsellorTroi for the recommendation