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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Jodie Turner-Smith as Anne Boleyn

386 replies

Bitchysideisouttoplay · 20/12/2020 11:34

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9071763/Director-TV-drama-Anne-Boleyn-says-best-person-role.html#article-9071763
Not and AIBU really but what does everyone think if this?
Personally I think if you are making a historical drama/film etc surely you should cast a person as close in looks to the historical figure.
Before anyone says I'm.being racist I'm not I had massive issues with the casting in the Tudors due to Johnathan Rhys Meyers being cast as Henry, he is short, not ginger and really does not look anything like Henry in portraits 🙄🙄

OP posts:
CrotchBurn · 20/12/2020 15:53

@2020iscancelled

I'm not even sure having BAME actors act in stories that demonstrate the "minority perspective" are great, because it's still somehow setting up a difference. It would just be cool to have BAME actors in standard roles - but then I'm white so maybe my angle is wrong

AndcalloffChristmas · 20/12/2020 15:55

Also - this has been done on stage for years and no one cared.

UsedUpUsername · 20/12/2020 15:56

@CrotchBurn

I think the elephant in the room is that Britain today is multicultural but it is historically a white region (and still is in terms of majority) and theres really not any getting away from that no matter how much diversity you try to layer over it in retellings. The best thing to do is to leave that as it is IMO and encourage more diversity in things set in a contemporary context.
My feeling about the matter as well
Bloodypunkrockers · 20/12/2020 15:57

@TheCattleGrid

So with a no deal Brexit looming and mutant Covid spreading, some white people are creating online threads complaining about one black actress being cast in a show they haven't seen or read the script for. Wow.
Are we not allowed to talk about anything else?
Raceless · 20/12/2020 15:57

[quote CrotchBurn]@Raceless
Why only "black actors"? I asked above, where are all the Asian actors?[/quote]
I don't know where they are. Perhaps we should go find them and round them up. Grin

I'm speaking about those who're speaking. If they weren't, we wouldn't be speaking about this, would we?

SchrodingersImmigrant · 20/12/2020 15:59

[quote CrotchBurn]@2020iscancelled

I'm not even sure having BAME actors act in stories that demonstrate the "minority perspective" are great, because it's still somehow setting up a difference. It would just be cool to have BAME actors in standard roles - but then I'm white so maybe my angle is wrong[/quote]
There is many BAME actors in standard roles. If anything apparently there is a big overrepresentation on British Tv.
But!
Are they often in big roles? Ir is it more support roles etc. That's where the issue lies.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 20/12/2020 16:00

Crotch has good questions. I think many groups are bit forgotten. Nit just in Tv.
I mean is there finally Asian topic on MN?

NellyJames · 20/12/2020 16:01

I’d rather they made decent tv casting good black actors as interesting black women in history rather than this nonsense. This is the kind of shit that gives people like Laurence Fox something to prattle on about.

ChestnutStuffing · 20/12/2020 16:05

...broken suspension of disbelief...
Flying dragons, White walkers, WOGS, zombies, speaking trees or whatever and all that. Ok, we believe.

I don't mean to remake it though, I think when something's already made, they should create a new one.So yes, the fake backstory and history, etc would have been made to fit if black characters were added from the get go...from the book and even just the show itself. As I understand it, a lot of what was on the show wasn't in the book and vice versa. Tbf people were 'absolutely fuming' because of it grin. They could do it if they really wanted to. Not saying they have to.

The books have an entirely logical ethnic, cultural, and racial distribution. Largely, the show follows the books with that. Westeros is very much like Europe. There are dark skinned people living more to the south, and they make some appearances in the stories.

He could have done it the other way round and made the people in the cold north black and the hot south white, and assumed some sort of reasonable explanation for such an evolutionary oddity, but why should he?

As far as dragons, and the rest. Those are part of the building of the story and they make sense as long as the story treats them fairly consistently. It's difficult to eb totally consistent in tv - you will see people complain about accents being inconsistent sometimes - but the closer the show gets the easier it can carry the viewer along.

Raceless · 20/12/2020 16:11

The fact that this happens makes me definitely take the cynical view that this casting of Anne is riding the coat tails of BLM and is a publicity stunt.

Of course a lot of what's happening with 'diversity' is riding the coat tails of the BLM movement and other similar causes. As I said above, those shouting the loudest.

As you can see, it wasn't handed to them because those in charge thought they deserved it by standing aside, grumbling and asking 'what about us?'.

You want something, you go and take it - The Great British Empire Wink

ChestnutStuffing · 20/12/2020 16:11

Are they often in big roles? Ir is it more support roles etc. That's where the issue lies.

Increasingly they are, I would say. There are plenty of tv shows etc which have non-white actors in substantial roles. About 85% of people in the UK are white, I would think that the representation on tv is pretty close to that, and in shows that depict areas without a lot of racial diversity it may well be tipped toward showing more than there is.

CherryValanc · 20/12/2020 16:11

@ChestnutStuffing

The thing with Othello is that if he "needs" to be black, the other actors need to not be black.

But if you do colour blind casting and rely on the text, the words, to tell the story, you can do what you want with any of them.

Or, you can cast colour-blind but use theatre-magic to transform people.

All of these could be effective from the point of view of telling the story. The first might appeal more to people who see a lot of plays.

He needs to be black due to reference to it in the lines. These words, and all references to the Moor, could of course of removed.and Othello doesn't need to be black at all, it would make it about the jealousy.

Also, the rest of the cast don't need to be white, and they haven't been, without it affecting the story.

Raceless · 20/12/2020 16:17

@CrotchBurn

By the way the other day I watched the Haunting if Bly Manor (Netflix series). Sone appalling fake accents there (particularly the cringe worthy Lancashire accent done by an American) but honestly some great acting.

I think they did diversity in that show really well, and I was really impressed by T'Nia Miller. I'm glad they are opening up roles, in that show two of the lead women were black (out of a total of five), and one of the three romances were between BAME characters.

I haven't watched it but interesting you mentioned this. I came across a Youtube video (have no idea why) of some woman saying the opposite of what you've just said. I think there were quite a few different videos of similar opinion Grin

Apparently it was wokeness gone bad, virtue signalling and all that to change the cast all because DIVERSITY.

There will always be complaining in the world.

Raceless · 20/12/2020 16:20

[quote CrotchBurn]@Raceless
In all fairness... Yeah, I was being a bit facetious![/quote]
I know, my friend, I know. Wink

CrotchBurn · 20/12/2020 16:25

@Raceless
😂

OppsUpsSide · 20/12/2020 16:26

I presume people complaining have never seen the musical SIX - best avoid 😂)

Seen it, from what I can remember the only black cast member was Anne of Cleeves remembered as the wife who Henry VIII divorced for being ugly. Coincidence..?

CrotchBurn · 20/12/2020 16:26

@Raceless
*I haven't watched it but interesting you mentioned this. I came across a Youtube video (have no idea why) of some woman saying the opposite of what you've just said. I think there were quite a few different videos of similar opinion

Apparently it was wokeness gone bad, virtue signalling and all that to change the cast all because DIVERSITY.*

It's a fictional story FFS why shouldn't the women have been black and the cook Asian?

Ferrari458 · 20/12/2020 16:27

Othello is about colour prejudice as well as jealousy. He is a general, if he had been white Desdemona's father would have had no problem with them marrying. But as it is "an old black ram is tupping your white ewe" makes the situation pretty clear. I think there are times when the context, the country, the nationality should be allowed to dictate the colour of the skin of the actor. We shouldn't be considering re-writing great literature to be fanatically politically correct.

Raceless · 20/12/2020 16:33

[quote CrotchBurn]@2020iscancelled

I'm not even sure having BAME actors act in stories that demonstrate the "minority perspective" are great, because it's still somehow setting up a difference. It would just be cool to have BAME actors in standard roles - but then I'm white so maybe my angle is wrong[/quote]
Yep. I agree with this completely.

fatherliamdeliverance · 20/12/2020 16:34

Race isn't irrelevant to the part of Anne Boleyn. The fact that she was a member of the white majority and ruling class, therefore probably no attention was paid to her race does not nullify it. The point is that if she was black, she would have likely had a very different experience due to the attitudes of the times. Even now, unfortunately, it seems like at least part of Meghan Markle's reception was due to her race.

Not saying there have been no black or mixed race British royals (Queen Charlotte, MM, Catherine of Aragon's retinue) whose stories might make an interesting programme, but Anne Boleyn wasn't one of them.

The difference between TV/ film historical dramas and theatre is that in theatre, a huge amount of suspension of disbelief is already required, hence it is not as important what the actors look like, characters can be cast colour blind more. However in a series that is meant to be realistic (even if details are not accurate), to do so either ignores race, which I don't think is a useful direction to head in, or revises history.

Raceless · 20/12/2020 16:36

Are they often in big roles? Ir is it more support roles etc. That's where the issue lies.

That's what I mean too.

Raceless · 20/12/2020 16:40

@SchrodingersImmigrant

Crotch has good questions. I think many groups are bit forgotten. Nit just in Tv. I mean is there finally Asian topic on MN?
And I ask the same thing: Are you asking because you really want Asian topic on MN or just off the back of others getting one?

If you do, I understand there was a big campaign before other's got theirs. Do it then! Grin

fatherliamdeliverance · 20/12/2020 16:41

As I said before, I don't want to sound as though I don't think BAME actors should get great opportunities, I just don't think this is the way to go about it. Feels a bit performative of the BBC or whoever is making the drama. Why not widen out the field with more interesting productions, with roles not necessarily specific to any race.

ChestnutStuffing · 20/12/2020 16:42

He needs to be black due to reference to it in the lines. These words, and all references to the Moor, could of course of removed.and Othello doesn't need to be black at all, it would make it about the jealousy.

Also, the rest of the cast don't need to be white, and they haven't been, without it affecting the story.

In a real colour-blind casting situation, you can absolutely have a white Othello if you want. That's the whole point of it, you rely on the text, the lines, to tell the audience what they need to know.

If you want the text to match the racial profile of the characters, then you need most of them besides Othello to be white, particularly Iago and Desdemona and her family, but most of the others as well. Othello is meant to be in a context where his blackness is unusual and unique - that's what causes the problem, it's what makes him the way he is, it's part of what fuels Iago's hatred.

Colour-blind casting isn't just meant to be about opening up roles to more performers - it's also about how the text of the play is related to the depiction of the play, how much they ned to "match". If the play isn't being presented in a naturalistic way, you could have complete freedom with your casting. It's a bit like abstract painting.

This is what's kind of frustrating about these conversations, and what you see with the casting - people talk about colour-blind casting but they clearly don't really mean that it's colour blind in the real sense. Only that they are wanting to include "diversity" where it seems less likely to interfere with the believability of the role. So - not colour-blind at all, actually.

At one time this was typically handled by making up the actors to fit the role better. Part of the reason colour-blind casting has been popularised is that is now taboo, so if your actors don't fit (which is common in local theatre) you can just say you are not casting based on race/ethnicity.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 20/12/2020 16:43

@raceless, I am not one, but I fully support their want for it. It's weird that after all that time asking they haven't got it. I think everyone with specific topics could and should have their section, especially if they kept asking for it. Whether it's black, Asian or Eastern European.