aibu to wonder if special needs schools do more harm than good?

[firthy85]

hello. i am a totally blind person. now what i have to say probably very much depends on you and your child's circumstances. i went to 2 mainstream schools in my hometown. the first i was bullied on a daily basis. walked into hedges deliberately by other pupils had kids spit in my mouth, ugh!. because of all these problems i was moved. the second school had a visually impaired learning unit which was fantastic and the support was brilliant but because i had been bullied so much i never settled down. the head teacher then knew of a bording school 70 miles away which was just for visually imparied people. at that school i did better although we did ahve our bullies but that's every school right?. then i went to a well known college which was for visually impaired people at which point as a young adult i started to feel like the whole thing was rediculous. it was very institutionalised. yes i did need a lot of support with things such as household and basic skills which they offered but the problem was there was a higher majority of students that were autistic so obviously for many the level of understanding was different to mine with only having eyesight problems. i only made a small handful of friends because of the situation and worse the staff treated us all the same so sometimes i was talked to in such a way that made me feel insulted. you had to show yourself worthy of certain priviliges like going out on your own in a taxi somewhere. i had that privilige revoked on one occasion when i went to the local pub with a friend and we got very drunk. it only happened because i was pissed off with someone who i thought was a friend who was going to come up to see me and she didn't come and i only found out when i rang her to find out where she was as i hadn't heard anything. so what is your experiences with special needs children in the educational system? cream buns for anyone who read to the end without getting bored lol

My son spent age 2-12 in a special needs preschool and school and it was great but he was the most advanced in his classes and there was no peer competition,so to speak. We moved and he was still in core special needs class but for electives in peer,neuro typical classes and he just blossomed being around them.Best thing we did for him. For children less cognitively aware it was wonderful to have the special needs school for therapies and additional staffers but we are so glad he had time in both

OP, I went to a school for the blind firstly in Exeter and then in South Africa. My personal view is that many people are so insistent on their children going to mainstream that they fail to see that putting children in mainstream often means segregating them even more because A, acceptance is often just not there, and B, they have no interactions with others who have the same disabilities as they have and they are therefore more isolated than they would be had they gone to SN school.

This is evident by the fact that some charities run services specifically for Children with disabilities who are in mainstream in order to give them opportunities to interact with others who share their difficulties. Look for instance is one such charity in the VI sector who offer such services.

I’m guessing you went to either RNC or Worcester, and IMO experiences can be different there year on year. I think it’s fair to say that the VI community is quite familial in that everyone knows everyone by some degree of separation. RNC etC do seem to have a higher instance of autistic/other SN there because it’s now much more difficult to gain funding if you don’t have additional disabilities as well as your visual impairment. But that wasn’t always the case, and as such the experiences of myself and others of my age are likely to be different to those who have come through the system in say, the last ten years.

I think that insisting children with disabilities be educated in mainstream has a lot to answer for. I know that’s not a popular view, and I know that many parents will be resistant to that view, however I also know many parents have to fight to get their children into specialist schools, and others whose children are in mainstream find it difficult for them to gain acceptance.

Depends on the child. My son is autistic, very bright but can't cope in large groups. Instead he goes to an ASD school and he's on a class of 8. Much better.

However if mainstream had smaller class sizes, he'd probably have been fine.

I think it depends on the school and the child.
My dd is severely disabled and whent to,a sn school and then a sn college, sh ewould have never coped in ms.
Both places were brilliant and supportive.

My autistic son had a horrific time in MS. The volume of people, noise, poor acceptance, expectation of conformity etc was appalling. He fell out of school and could never have returned quite easily.

He's now at an ASD specialist school and it has transformed his life. He will succeed in life now and be happy and content with who he is rather than ashamed and mentally unwell.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Inclusion at all costs is sabotaging many children's chances at a good education and outcome. They need to invest heavily in lots of different types of schools for lots of different needs to suit all different types of children.

I think it is really difficult because every person with a disability has individual needs. I have been an OT for a very long time and remember when children with disabilities all went to special schools/hospitals. In my opinion it is right for some children to go to mainstream school and some children to go to special schools but I do find that there can be a lack of understanding and inclusion in mainstream schools and children’s needs are not well met because of lack of support. I went to a secondary school with an attached special school and part of the reason I became an OT was through seeing and chatting to the children with special needs over the fence.

I am going to admit to having big splinters in my arse for fence sitting on this issue...

I have a DS in a special school. He has been since nursery and will be until 6th form (year 11 currently). We will never know if that was the best decision because it was the decision we made and don't know how it would have panned out otherwise.

All I can say is that, for him, it gave him exactly the support he needed and he DOES have a strong peer group with similar ability levels, lots of friends and it has given him the gift of speech as well as sign language, which he didn't have before (Deaf).

I am a Teacher of the Deaf and support children in mainstream schools. I am not going to lie. They different enormously in the quality and amount of support they provide. We advise and support, but the schools have to spend their extra money wisely and put in the support agreed. Most do. Some don't. For some children, they completely thrive and it fits like a glove. Others seriously struggle and end up mainly 1:1 out of class, which should never happen.

In the cases of those children, I would always advise a resource base. Mainstream school with specialist provision.

They are - again - variable. Some are wonderfully inclusive, the resource base children are part and parcel of the school, attend mainstream with specialist support and are socially integrated. In some that is less well accomplished.

Sometimes children in both mainstream and resource base provision have needs that can't be met that way. They have no peer group, they are always separate and different. They usually have needs above and beyond their primary need - and in those cases, special schools are absolutely what they need.

I taught in a special school too, so I know how well they fit some children. On the other hand, I have taught children in special schools who I have felt really strongly should have been in mainstream... but in the end, whatever strong advice you give, parental choice can not be over-ridden.

So really and truly, it's horses for courses and I think the fact that there are all of those different models and experts who know the children to guide them in the right direction is a real strength of the system.

There is no assumption that a child with special needs will go to a special school. In fact, the guidance in my LA is exactly the opposite: assume mainstream unless there is strong evidence against that - and there has to be strong evidence that reasonable adjustments can't be made. I think that is the right way round.

DD1 has always gone to special school. She isn't having a great time at her current one, as her needs clash a bit with other children's needs. But if she went to a mainstream school, she'd be so isolated. She's probably working at a year 3/4 level and she's in year 10. She's socially working at about half her chronological age. Limited sense of danger. Easily led. Impulsive. Who would her friends be? She'd need a 1:1 just to keep her safe.

I would add that my knowledge of special needs colleges is far less and I can very much see the difficulties of managing the different needs of young adults who will all have different life and independence skills. I don't know the solution to that, but I am sorry, OP that it didn't work for you. I hope that things have changed now and there is more awareness of preparation for adult life that is appropriate for each individual.

thanks for the comments. yes i see the differences hense why i did say that it depends on the ability of the child. the problem for me was when i left my school and went to a college which was also for the visually impaired i felt like a duck out of water after my first year ended simply because i realised that this was not a normal college life which i was leading. alternative, i didn't go to rnc or worcester i am not going to say where just in case it makes me identifiable. but i do feel if we had been treated more individually it would have been much better

Really think it depends on the level of need of the child and the quality of the school (special or mainstream)
My ds has ASD and has found mainstream very challenging, not academically but with sensory issues, friendships and the general 'bigness' of a mainstream school. He has a 1:1 but this in itself is a barrier to making friends, particularly as they get older. I would have liked him to go to an ASD unit but they are massively oversubscribed and according to our paediatrician 'the children who make the most noise get the most help'.
A friend has 2 children who are registered blind and the eldest went to a school for the blind. She said from a technological POV it was great and everyone had sight issues so activities were adapted and much more inclusive, however she said it was very limited in curriculum and academic aspiration. She moved her youngest to a small mainstream school that had a high percentage of children with SEN and her daughter thrived there, and did much better academically in the long run than her older sister.
I also have a friend with a son with spina bifida (he is a wheelchair user) and he went to a special school from aged 3 and thrived. He went on to swim competitively in the special Olympics and his mum said that due to his school he had had access to many specialist facilities (such as a pool in school) that she couldn't have facilitated herself had he been in mainstream.

I'm having this quandary at the moment (if that's the right word 🧐) my son is coming up 6 and has a diagnosis of autism. He has 1:1 in mainstream school and 'pre-verbal' so lots of words and no sentences
. I'm worried he's being isolated too often and I'm worried about the widening gap between him and his peers but also worried that if he was in a specialised school with children with more complex needs than his he would feel isolated the other way around and maybe pick up behaviours he doesn't have . So I can't comment but am following to see what others experiences have been like

TBH I think that colleges like schools can vary widely.

Like a PP I have heard that the academic attainment in VI schools in this country was always quite low. I was educated in South Africa and there the standard of education was incredibly high so I can’t comment on that score.

But with colleges they very much are hit and miss depending on where they are.

RNC for instance has a fairly decent reputation or it did have before they had to sell off half their campus and reduce their courses/services, but even now they still are well thought of, and I know at least one person who went there and who is now studying medicine at Oxford.

Other colleges though have a lesser approach, and e.g. Queen Alexandra college has long stopped taking in purely blind students and now the vast, vast majority have quite severe additional needs so the experience is naturally going to be different.

And I realise that with the amount of information I have given about myself etc I have almost certainly outed myself....

@bodhi1982

I'm having this quandary at the moment (if that's the right word 🧐) my son is coming up 6 and has a diagnosis of autism. He has 1:1 in mainstream school and 'pre-verbal' so lots of words and no sentences . I'm worried he's being isolated too often and I'm worried about the widening gap between him and his peers but also worried that if he was in a specialised school with children with more complex needs than his he would feel isolated the other way around and maybe pick up behaviours he doesn't have . So I can't comment but am following to see what others experiences have been like

I think you need to think about his peer group. When DD1 was first at special school, they had a sports day. I remember watching a child struggle to hold a hockey stick - it kept spinning in her hands as she picked it up. I felt sorry for her and I remember thinking 'DD1 isn't that bad...' Well, to my amazement, DD1's turn came and she picked up the hockey stick.... And it span around in her hands. I was quite shocked and realised, for the first time, that she really did fit there.

Now, at 15, I shudder to think what her school life would be like in mainstream. She's still watching slime videos, enjoying sensory play, etc., There's no way she could have meaningful, equal, friendships with 15 year olds.

I think we need more, partly for the reasons @AlternativePerspective stated. But also because if we had more places, it would be possible to provide suitable groupings for more children.
My friends ds has complex needs and his school is ideal for him. But his class covers a wide range of ability and needs, and there are other dc, both with more and less challenges than him that in an ideal world would have their needs met better with more matched peers. And with more schools and variety, we'd also be able to cover that grey area we currently have where dc are deemed not bad enough/ too academic for special school, but at the same time with all the will in the world a mainstream environment will never be suitable either.

Just because you had a bad experience, doesn't mean that you can tar them all with the same brush!

And was it really about having privileges? Or that they have a duty of care?

I am sorry you didn't have a good experience in your schools, however I think the generalisation you are making it really not thinking about the needs of so many children who need specialist support.
I agree with almost everything maudspellbody has said.
Special school provision is VASTLY different in different authorities.
Mainstream provision is extremely mixed. Some schools are dire. Some are brilliant. Most are doing their level best without decent training, or enough funding, and constantly fighting other pressures from things such as League Tables and OFSTED 'statistics' giving out %s of children that pass this and that without giving any narrative to the children the school are admitting and working with.

The only point I'd disagree with in Maud's report is but in the end, whatever strong advice you give, parental choice can not be over-ridden. In my LA, there are nowhere near enough special school places for the children that need them / families that want them, so parental choice is over-ridden far too often.

I think there needs to be a massive shake up of both the inclusion part of mainstream school (which in our experience has neen appalling) and in specialist provision...because there seems to be a chasm into which fall many children with complex needs who find every aspect of mainstream difficult, but are deemed 'too able' for specialist. I think the idea was that mainstream with resource base would fulfil this need...but I think they are often very problematic in themselves.

It seems like you were failed by the school systems. Being visually impaired is not the same as having SEN. There's no reason a visually impaired person can't attend a mainstream school with the right provisions in place.
My son is in a SEN school. He is autistic with severe learning disabilities. He wouldn't be able to even slightly function in a mainstream school so it wasn't something I considered. He is thriving and he loves it there. It truly is an amazing school and I can't fault it.

It depends the school and the needs of the child ,my son is in a complex learning disabilities school he has severe autism and learning disabilities he's ten and in year six so due to go to high school in September ,I'm not entirely happy with the LEA school choice so have named a private specialist provision which I feel would suit him better ,which I'm going to be to fight for

My son (29, ASD) would never, ever have made the progress he has (mainstreamed full time by 14 with a LOT of support over six years from both primary and secondary special schools working closely with mainstream schools - he now has a degree) without the superlative special education he had from age 5. His primary has consistently been rated Outstanding for all the years they have been inspected (20+).
Your experience is valid for you. But it isn't valid for everyone, and frankly I am fed up with the attacks on special ed from people with an agenda.
You want honesty - there it is.

I agree @HazeyJaneII
RBs were supposed to meet that need - the aim was to offer places to dc who could be fully included in so much of school life, whilst getting specialist support as and where they needed it. In my LA, the RBs have been filled up with children who weren't lucky enough to get the special school provision they need, and the children that could have thrived in RBs are left to flounder in mainstream all too often.

I think it massively depends on the situation. Some children can't cope in mainstream and a specialist school can be great for them. Your school sounds shocking though in that it seems more like a dumping ground for any kind of disability rather than a place which can provide specialist care. If you're visually impaired but without intellectual disabilities and neurotypical then clearly your needs are going to be purely practical support. I can't believe that as an adult you're not allowed to go to the pub and get drunk if you want to!

i put the word schools into the wider broad sense of things in order to get the best of people's experiences. the school where i did secondary education which was the one where i stayed mon-fri was good it did have quite a lot of ASD students but people were treated individually. as a young adult it was the college i later went to that at first i just excepted because i didn't really know any better then as time went by they had lesser and lesser students who were just visually impaired so it became more and more like an add-on to school. the few of us who weren't intelectually disabled got talked down to and for the main treated like children not 17 to 21 year olds. it felt like we were very sheltered from the actual real world. when it came to going out everything we did had to be done as part of a learning thing which sounds good in the theory of it but it could be taken away also so easily if you did something wrong. first the mobility team taught the students how to walk to the post box round the corner. once that was signed off and if you passed it without problems you could then do that yourself. then later on the walk down to the shops which was only a 5 min walk. then what they called a leisure pass which meant you could go to the pub, go bowling etc however you couldn't take another student with you who had not taken the mobility leisure pass and if you lost the lleissure pass which i did temporarily after going out and getting drunk, you had then to only go out with the group and the staff members. i do get the duty of care thing but it just felt so weird for me and them small majority without actual needs of people with bad learning difficulties