No deal is the height of irresponsibility

[Songsofexperience]

It's a terrible outcome for regular people and our livelihoods. It's bad for basically everything.
So gutted for this country, really.
Merry fucking Christmas

Why are so many Brexit threads suddenly popping up on AIBU? Brexit board is here. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_

How insulting that the Brexiteers are blaming the EU for a no deal Brexit.

It is literally what you voted for.

You voted to leave, you don't get to cherry pick the good bits.

Why are so many Brexit threads suddenly popping up on AIBU? Brexit board is here. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_

Thanks, but lots of us are happy to leave them here in AIBU. You don't get to dictate where people post.

@Allthestarsarecloser

Honestly, none of this is the EU’s fault. They didn’t create a stupid ignorant referendum question with no thought for the consequences.

This shit show is ENTIRELY at the door of tory party

Absolutely.

I voted remain, before people jump down my throat, BUT

1. I honestly think that the country would have voted to remain had we been like lots of other countries who let their people consent via a referendum to EU treaty change. We had 40 years of the EU changing into a somewhat different organisation than what people voted for and no popular mandate for committing to that (despite me being happy with it on balance). France, Germany and Ireland amongst others all gave people a say one way or another in their country's membership - maybe just rubber stamping (though the Irish got significant concessions from their no vote to Lisbon) but I think symbolically important. If you wind people up and then tell them this is their one chance to vote on a project that might involve further integration in future without any real democratic accountability to them, then they might see voting out as the more conservative position in terms of control/sovereignty. I think it is a huge political failure that the Remain camp didn't understand that the U.K. is actually culturally quite Eurosceptic (we are not on the whole EU enthusiasts in terms of the project, more interested in pragmatic benefits that don't have the same emotional appeal as for Germans - the Dutch are quite similar).

1. Yes, the EU is quite entitled to try to use its power to prevent us from leaving on good terms. This is of course what they are doing and could be seen from the outset (hence why I voted to remain). That doesn't make their position entirely reasonable - in international terms, no one would sign a deal with the EU in which the EU gets to choose what standards will apply in future and then punish them if they don't follow them. No other country has been asked to do so in a free trade deal with the EU (usually such trade deals have clauses that prevent regression from CURRENT standards, with arbitration if one party does regress - we have suggested this on the U.K. side, but the EU is not happy with this, because they do not want to treat us on a footing as a country entering into a new trade agreement with them, but want to tie us in as a leaving country. This isn't reasonable if you view the new arrangement as a free trade deal - any other country would tell them to get stuffed with this position and the EU wouldn't even seek to run it, but it is entirely understandable when you look at the reasons behind it - keeping unity, preventing other countries from following a similar path). The question is just who will blink first - the U.K. should not really blink as a point of principle, because it would be an extremely one sided deal that no other country would ever sign up to willingly, BUT of course, there will be harm if we don't given that we are already in an integrated position, unlike that of a new country (perhaps less harm than expected, because services are not included in a trade deal anyway so that harm is priced in regardless and there may be a few benefits - if it will be harder to transport prepared foods on lorries, then food processing may take place more in the U.K. from ingredients shipped in. I am not saying this makes up for it, just that in the long term supply chains do adapt, even if things become more expensive. There will absolutely be harm nonetheless).

@Viviennemary

No deal is better than signing up to a deal which is no better than staying in. Out means out not signing up to their daft rules.

What daft rules specifically? Sounds like Farage’s bendy banana rubbish.

YANBU. It really is insane. Next year is going to be, umm, "interesting".

What will happen to workers rights that have been slowly eroded due to loop holes and zero hour contracts?

We end up with the at will employment system favoured in the US. That basically puts everyone at risk of dismissal for almost any reason (the exception being discrimination, but the success rates of such cases are very very low).

If people think this won't happen, the government has already doubled the time that protections kick in from one year to two years. Also they introduced fees for employment tribunals, though thankfully the courts overruled this. Now they're trying to restrict the power of courts in judicial review cases, so they can impose their will without scrutiny.

Some people believe that EU law holds us back. I cannot think of any EU provision that impedes us as individuals.

@Orangeblossom77777 No. It's like the UK wanted a divorce but still wanted the other half to do the washing and clean the house. Strangely if we're not in the club we miss out on the benefits.

People voted many years ago for a trade treaty. They did not vote to be ruled by European parliament. That's why we are leaving.

@Hayeahnobut

Though equally EU law did not prevent the government from watering down any of those employment rights.

@Songsofexperience

No. The UK wants access to a market without any strings attached. There are always trade offs involved in a trade deal.

The UK were looking for the same terms as that offered to Canada and Japan. No country on the planet would sign-up to the current terms offered by the EU.

@Orangeblossom77777

The UK is trying it's best but the EU is giving unreasonable demands so unfortunately this is the position right now.

Glad to see we still have humour

Voted remain but can’t see how we can accept what’s on offer.

Hard to get info as these threads go the same way.

I’m sure someone sensible talked about a review clause this morning on R4. Standard clause which could help.

More insight appreciated!

Only good news this morning. This below in the Mail:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9042327/Thousands-lorries-queue-night-Dover.html

Personally, I'm broke so no one will get a bought gift from me this year but what pisses me off here is the idea that goods might be delayed until frigging MARCH. How about all the essentials stuck in there? It's not just Xmas presents in those containers.

As always with these discussions - the reality is that most people know very little about the EU and next to nothing about international trade or trade deals. Which is fine, but does mean that they believe most of the headlines. Unfortunately, the Conservative party is mainly looking out for their interests i.e. privatization and deregulation. Now why it is that British tax payers are happy to support an elite that mainly looks out for itself is another question. But they do and are therefore happy to carry on doing so as demonstrated in December last year.

Yes, things will obvioulsly get a lot worse. They wouldnt be great with a deal but without a deal the only way for the UK economy to become even a tiny bit more competitive is to slash all regulations and make it into a little USA with the Tory donors making a lot of cash in the process. It will be crap for everyone else, but then again ten years of austerity have been terrible for the country and no one seems to mind too much

@Pyewhacket - the UK was never going to get Japan/Canada terms on account of well not being Japan or Canada. If you look at the Norway/Swiss terms they are even more draconian than the ones the Brits were offered.

without a deal the only way for the UK economy to become even a tiny bit more competitive is to slash all regulations and make it into a little USA with the Tory donors making a lot of cash in the process.

I know the US well and i like it but it's not an easy life over there. And they at least have plenty more space.

Go cry to the bully boys in the EU, they are the ones who want their cake and to eat it

I firmly blame then, Cameron asked for some leeway on immigration, they told him to go away, to the British voted and go away we are. All they had to do was compromise at that point.

Now they are the ones heading us for no deal, as again they won’t compromise and bully Macron is leading the way

That said we are making trade deals with other countries now, and whilst I think it will be tough to start with other markets are opening up for us now

Personally I am looking for the positive in all this

Oh, god, this is like performance art, keep it coming

Cameron asked for some leeway on immigration, they told him to go away

Oh COME ON!!
FOM is one of the pillars of the single market. Asking for some 'leeway' is cakeism. There were already rules in place within the EU which would have addressed most issues but the UK didnt implement them.

It was inevitable that this was going to happen, the EU were never going to make it easy. What did leave voters honestly expect to happen? They are who I blame, not the government, however incompetent they are. They could be the best in the world and leaving the EU would still have been a stupid thing to try and do.

@Songsofexperience I also know the US and frankly is a shit place to live unless you're the 1%. But hey ho.....Brits dont care. They know little about life elsewhere and a national motto is basically that life is crap. Well, it doesn't have to be and isn't elsewhere.

@Chloemol

Go cry to the bully boys in the EU, they are the ones who want their cake and to eat it

I firmly blame then, Cameron asked for some leeway on immigration, they told him to go away, to the British voted and go away we are. All they had to do was compromise at that point.

Now they are the ones heading us for no deal, as again they won’t compromise and bully Macron is leading the way

That said we are making trade deals with other countries now, and whilst I think it will be tough to start with other markets are opening up for us now

Personally I am looking for the positive in all this

This is a joke post isn’t it?

No deal is better than a bad deal.

I think that once we have excited the transition period we will be in a much better position. Neither side really wants any tariffs on goods but I believe that negotiating from a point where we are totally separate will help focus both sides on achieving an outcome that is acceptable to both.