To ask why it seems to be the holy grail for so many women to look younger than their age?

[CounsellorTroi]

Before I start I'm not immune to this. I'm 59 and I do still dye my hair and use anti ageing moisturiser. But I do have fine lines and creases at the corner of my eyes when I smile. I don't care though. I've never had any fillers or Botox. I reckon I could pass for 55 in a good light.

But it does seem to be that the ultimate compliment to a woman, apart from "have you lost weight?" is "you're how old? Gosh I would never have guessed". It doesn't seem to be an issue for men - in fact for a 40 year old man to look in his late 20s would be a bit embarrassing.

It seems though that women are indoctrinated into this "you must not age" from a young age. Just recently a poster's 16 year old daughter had asked for a subscription treatment that is usually only available on prescription for acne. It's really sad. So why do we still buy into this idea that our main worth as women is our youth and beauty?

A 16yr old getting a subscription to Dermatica to get acne under control is in no way the same as women feeling the need to look younger than they are.

Personally I'm finding the ageing process really difficult as did my mother. I'm never going to be someone who likes looking older so I use tretinoin too, I don't use it for anyone but myself though. I just don't want to look older because in my head I'm still in my 30/40's.

A 16yr old getting a subscription to Dermatica to get acne under control is in no way the same as women feeling the need to look younger than they are.

IIRC the 16 year old didn't actually have acne. The treatment has an anti ageing side effect.

Misogyny is the root cause essentially OP, and what it makes of the worth of women and their place in a society, how value judgements on women are made etc.

Absolutely nothing wrong with seeking treatment for acne, it can be very painful and cause scarring, as well as an effect on mental health.

IIRC the 16 year old didn't actually have acne. The treatment has an anti ageing side effect.

I don't think the derms would allow a prescription for anti-ageing for a 16yr old though. You have to send several pictures of your face,they don't just let you sign up and send you out the cream. Mine was delayed because I have some health conditions and they weren't prepared to send it until they'd investigated whether I could use it safely.

This is the thread I mentioned in my OP. Just to confirm she didn't have acne, but wanted it to prevent future ageing.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4089432-Teenage-daughter-wants-a-retina-prescription-to-prevent-Future-aging

I did think there was an interesting conversation to be had about the wider points I am making though.

This is a tonic both for weight acceptance and the nonsense women are told about aging. Cracks me up every time

Because under patriarchal society women have historically been most valuable to society in their child bearing years.

Maintaining the appearance of them, even when actually older, has always been a valuable commodity.

This is really interesting @TinselToedElf

'Personally I'm finding the ageing process really difficult as did my mother. I'm never going to be someone who likes looking older so I use tretinoin too, I don't use it for anyone but myself though. I just don't want to look older because in my head I'm still in my 30/40's.'

What is it about looking older that you don't like or want?

Could it be that a woman is seen as ' past her prime' after her 40's? 🤔

I was brought up with this attitude. My grandmother indoctrinated my mother and she in turn indoctrinated me. My grandmother was constantly complaining that my mother looked frumpy and elderly (she didn't) and therefore drew attention to my grandmother's age.

My mother's attitude was that a woman's worth lies heavily (completely, even) in being able to bag a man, and that required looking young and dressing with sex appeal at all times. I've really struggled with this over my life - it didn't help that I was a VERY ugly duckling teen just at the time my mother's influence was at its most damaging.

I think I've finally processed out all the crap, in that I dress for me and use all manner of lotions and potions because I enjoy them and I enjoy looking as good as I can. I have also found fitness and love feeling strong. So for me it's more about looking how I feel IYSWIM. When I was a teen anyone old enough to be a grandmother really did look on the older side compared to people of that age today. That's not just me remembering my views then - I can see it from old photos. I can't buy into that. A purple rinse and twinset just won't do.

Every time I see a FB post of someone’s daughter after some achievement or other, it always dismays me when I see comment after comment about said persons looks/beauty rather than the achievement itself. Unfortunately women are the worst for this.

“Aw she is so pretty”
“Beautiful princess”
“She is gorgeous”
“wow what a stunner”

Unfortunately I don’t think this will ever change.

In fact for a 40 year old man to look in his late 20s would be a bit embarrassing

I don't think so.

Interested in this subject, though, not least because I was so delighted to be asked for id when buying tobacco this morning that I texted my DH and my mum to tell them about it . In my defence it was the first time in six years that I have been asked and I am not handling very well at all that I turn 40 in 6 months, but I agree with you, it's sad. Why does it make me happy for someone to suggest I look younger than my age? What does it matter?

@LittleMissBrainy

This is really interesting *@TinselToedElf*

'Personally I'm finding the ageing process really difficult as did my mother. I'm never going to be someone who likes looking older so I use tretinoin too, I don't use it for anyone but myself though. I just don't want to look older because in my head I'm still in my 30/40's.'

What is it about looking older that you don't like or want?

Could it be that a woman is seen as ' past her prime' after her 40's? 🤔

I honestly don't know why I don't want to look my age. I'm happy to no longer bother shaving my legs, more than happy to go out makeup free dressed in old sweats and trainers. Don't do nail polish or jewellery and frequently go days when not at work with my hair unwashed and scraped back.

My skin however on my face is another matter, like spodge above, I love lotions and potions on my face, I get actual joy from a new pot of something coming home with me, the packaging, smell, texture.

Maybe I want to be as defiant in my older years as I was in my youth, only rather than going wild when socialising I'm looking to remain as wrinkle free as possible.

@TheKeatingFive

Because under patriarchal society women have historically been most valuable to society in their child bearing years.

Maintaining the appearance of them, even when actually older, has always been a valuable commodity.

It's worth pointing out that this is true of every species that shows transparent signs of youth, health and fertility.

We're just the only species to be cognisant of the fact, and who have sales and marketeers exploiting that.

I mean, the old cockerels in our coop generally got bloodily killed by the younger ones once they lost their youth and vitality, so we definitely don't have it that bad.

(not that chicken society is a standard we should be aiming for... Just that it's useful to put human behaviour in the context of other animal species)

It's worth pointing out that this is true of every species that shows transparent signs of youth, health and fertility.

We're just the only species to be cognisant of the fact, and who have sales and marketeers exploiting that.

I mean, the old cockerels in our coop generally got bloodily killed by the younger ones once they lost their youth and vitality, so we definitely don't have it that bad.

But in that case it's males killing younger males. Human females are amongst the few species that have menopause and live significantly longer than their reproductive life (the others are all whales). So it's not strictly comparable.

We're also heavily influenced by the media and it's very rare to see older women in interesting roles in films and TV. Older women tend to be mothers or villains, and are somewhat sidelined.

I wonder if this is a British /American thing. I live in France where women, even actresses, seem to just want to look good, rather than look young.

Weather people on TV are the only really over groomed women and it's quite ageing. There's much less obvious Botox, foundation, spiky nails etc. My Parisian neighbour looks a little younger than her mid seventies but that's down to slightly edgy clothes, great accessories, well maintained hair and so on.

Something else I've noticed here is I've become visible again at nearly sixty! I don't mean in a sleazy way, but men and women of all ages will actually compliment you. It's recognised that beauty exists in all age groups.

I've met loads of men that want me to guess their age in that horrible way people do when they're shamelessly fishing for complements. Mate, I said 40 because I'm at work and I have to be polite. I actually think you look like a shit 70 and it doesn't surprise me at all that you're 50.

I've never ever ever met a woman who's asked me how old they are. I think women in general look better than men as they age though, and I'm usually genuinely surprised when I find out how old female acquaintances are. Not that it matters!

It pisses me off that some people seem to expect me to apologise for looking my age, and boy do I point it out to them.

It's worth pointing out that this is true of every species that shows transparent signs of youth, health and fertility.

Sure. No one ever suggested nature was fair and nice.

We're just the only species to be cognisant of the fact, and who have sales and marketeers exploiting that.

Yup.

Yes OP and it’s getting younger, the age they’re indoctrinated

Or maybe it’s me

My sister is the type who really enjoys her expensive products. I used to accompany her to shops and they obviously saw a sister and tried to flog stuff to me. At 25, I got a lecture from a woman selling stuff to sister about how I must use eye cream and 25 was actually too old to start on it and blah blah.

After that I told my sister I wouldn’t go to beauty places any more.

20 years later, still no eye cream. So what if I look my age?

I whole heartedly agree with you op and the morals of the story etc
But I'm 45 and when I look in the mirror first thing in the morning I dont think Yay another wrinkle, or I love my saggy jowels. Maybe I'm vain , and vanity is indeed a sin , but is there one person on here that would not want to look 20 years younger.
I wish it wasnt so !

I guess the reality is when your in your 40's you are at the end of your fertile years and this is natures way.

@CounsellorTroi

It's worth pointing out that this is true of every species that shows transparent signs of youth, health and fertility.

We're just the only species to be cognisant of the fact, and who have sales and marketeers exploiting that.

I mean, the old cockerels in our coop generally got bloodily killed by the younger ones once they lost their youth and vitality, so we definitely don't have it that bad.

But in that case it's males killing younger males. Human females are amongst the few species that have menopause and live significantly longer than their reproductive life (the others are all whales). So it's not strictly comparable.

I do agree with you, but I still think it's the awareness of our age - and our ever increasing ability to reverse the effect - that makes more of a difference.

There are certain signifies of health and vitality that cross sexes and species - the most common being shiny hair and smooth skin - beyond any species-specific secondary sexual characteristics. And all the images we have of good-looking older women radiate health above anything else. Which is why super skinny models are photoshopped to the nth degree to conceal the damage being that slim does to their skin and looks. Regardless of my age or weight, I look like shit if I'm tired with dirty hair.

I come from a family who look 25 from about the age of 16-40, which is all in the bone structure and skin.

I am a couple of years younger but I have embraced my grey and the only thing I put on my face is a bit of vitamin e cream.
I have no problem looking my age and find anyone who thinks they are defying the ageing process to be pretty tedious.

I have no problem looking my age and find anyone who thinks they are defying the ageing process to be pretty tedious.

So you're happy to call other women, who may have issues getting to grips with ageing, tedious? Nice!