Our justice system

[ShirleyShirleyShirley]

I was reading about the devastating case of Emily Jones and in the comments on the news website people were discussing our justice system.

What are your thoughts? Do you think we’re ‘too soft’? Do you think it needs reform? What would you do to change it?

It’s need reforming, it’s can be a joke, some of the judges are way too old and don’t have a clue on what’s going in, and outcomes like in the Emily Jones case are deplorable.

I don’t understand how they have reached the outcome in the Emily Jones case at all. It’s also devastating as she had a known history of violence, this surely could have been prevented

People need to be careful - there has been an awful lot of misinformation about this case on social media, and the family have been devastated by the way her death is being used. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/how-killing-emily-jones-cruelly-19401132

The outcome is clear and sensible, so I fail to understand what you don't understand. It is a terrible tragedy, but the woman responsible was seriously ill and could not be held mentally competent with regard to her actions. That was what the judge found, and she will now be held in an appropriate hospital facility for the protection of herself and others.

As to whether it could have been prevented, I don't think anyone can determine that without access to all the information. Newspapers and social media are very good at selectively using - or deliberately misusing - information to suit their own agendas. Perhaps more could have been done, perhaps it couldn't. There is certainly a total lack of resource and support for people with mental illness in the UK, from those with mild cases to the seriously ill. Mental ill health hasn't been taken seriously, and funding as been cut and cut and cut. Perhaps that is where the debate needs to focus - how do we help those who need help? But even good mental health services will not prevent the rare tragedies. And it needs to be kept in perspective - these cases are tragic but exceptionally rare, and people with poor mental health are in far more danger from themselves and others than they pose to us.

Two issues here. Murder is the premeditated intention to kill another human being. It would have to have been proven that she deliberately set out to kill poor Emily. Clearly the prosecution felt that would be too difficult given her mental incapacity and lack of capacity for rational thought. If they went for murder and she was found not guilty, she may have walked free so they have gone for the lesser charge.

2nd - should she have been locked up indefinitely with her history? Can people like this be cured? And why are such dangerous people allowed into Britain? There have been numerous cases of mentally ill migrants murdering people. This is NOT about migration per se but it seems many of these east European countries don’t have decent mental health services therefore people can go under the radar and not have any official diagnosis that may preclude them from entry. A bit like Portugal when MMcC was taken - they did not have a sex offenders list so could claim they had no sex offenders.

What is it this terrible case says about our justice system, for you?

absolutely spot on. Moondust001

Interested how ShirleyShirleyShirley would see 'reform' manifest itself 'in the light of the Emily Jones case ' ?

I really hope people are not suggesting we get rid of the defenders of diminished responsibility! Or are you suggesting that the severely mentally ill are just required to be judged as competent ?

Yes it's horrific. Of course it's natural to want to hold someone accountable when something this tragic and this horrendous happens. It doesn't however make it right to refuse a seriously mentally ill person the DR defence. Two wrongs do not make a right.

As pp said. The guilty party here are the successive governments who have cut MH funding to the bone. Leaving people like this with inadequate treatment and supervision.

And why are such dangerous people allowed into Britain? There have been numerous cases of mentally ill migrants murdering people. This is NOT about migration per se but it seems many of these east European countries don’t have decent mental health services therefore people can go under the radar and not have any official diagnosis that may preclude them from entry.
And there we go. Of course "this is NOT about migration per se" because if you were to make it about migration per se then you would be just like those on social media in that article who used this tragic death to MAKE it about migration.

So, since it isn't about migration:

• Can you please explain EXACTLY how many mentally ill migrants have murdered people in the UK; and how many mentally ill NON-migrants have murdered people in the UK? You claim there have been numerous cases, so let's examine you "facts".
• Can you please explain your claim that many Eastern European countries don't have "decent mental health services" - what "decent" means? Actually, many have better ones than we have and the NHS regularly recruits practitioners from Eastern Europe due to their expertise. And we don't really have a good mental health service either - evidenced by the fact that it is claimed she was not well served by it over many years!
• What is your evidence to say that she was dangerous when "let into" Britain? And can you explain what mental health screening you intend to introduce at ports of entry that will identify those who are dangerously mentally ill?

Actually, you have attempted to make it all about migration, and you haven't a clue what you are talking about. Good attempt at veiled racism though. Migrants are not dangerous, and mentally ill people are not dangerous. In very rare circumstances those statements may not be true. But it would also not true to say that nice white British people don't kill, or that nice white mentally ill people are never dangerous.

Just here to say I agree with @Moondust001

Hang on a second! I haven’t said any of my thoughts, I simply asked what others thought. You are putting a lot of words into my mouth when all I did was ask questions! I haven’t said she should be locked up indefinitely. I haven’t said she should be convicted or murder, or manslaughter, or at all. You’re making assumptions based on a few questions.

What I actually think is that mental health support in our country is very poor and that if it was better then situations like this could potentially be prevented.

@ShirleyShirleyShirley

Hang on a second! I haven’t said any of my thoughts, I simply asked what others thought. You are putting a lot of words into my mouth when all I did was ask questions! I haven’t said she should be locked up indefinitely. I haven’t said she should be convicted or murder, or manslaughter, or at all. You’re making assumptions based on a few questions.

What I actually think is that mental health support in our country is very poor and that if it was better then situations like this could potentially be prevented.

Nobody is putting words in your mouth. You asked for opinions, and you got them. One of those opinions was, at least in my opinion, pretty appalling and that was responded to. But please don't play dumb. You asked open ended questions to elicit a response, and you got one. If you wanted a broad discussion about the state of mental health or criminal justice in this country, you could have posted about that. But you chose a very inflammatory case and hung your open ended questions on that single situation. You expected, I suspect, a "hang 'em, flog 'em" response. You might still get that. But I don't believe for one second that you weren't being goady.

@Doggybiccys

Two issues here. Murder is the premeditated intention to kill another human being. It would have to have been proven that she deliberately set out to kill poor Emily. Clearly the prosecution felt that would be too difficult given her mental incapacity and lack of capacity for rational thought. If they went for murder and she was found not guilty, she may have walked free so they have gone for the lesser charge.

2nd - should she have been locked up indefinitely with her history? Can people like this be cured? And why are such dangerous people allowed into Britain? There have been numerous cases of mentally ill migrants murdering people. This is NOT about migration per se but it seems many of these east European countries don’t have decent mental health services therefore people can go under the radar and not have any official diagnosis that may preclude them from entry. A bit like Portugal when MMcC was taken - they did not have a sex offenders list so could claim they had no sex offenders.

You simply cannot go and ban someone from migrating because they have x mental health illness... What a stupid thing to say.

@Moondust001

People need to be careful - there has been an awful lot of misinformation about this case on social media, and the family have been devastated by the way her death is being used. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/how-killing-emily-jones-cruelly-19401132

The outcome is clear and sensible, so I fail to understand what you don't understand. It is a terrible tragedy, but the woman responsible was seriously ill and could not be held mentally competent with regard to her actions. That was what the judge found, and she will now be held in an appropriate hospital facility for the protection of herself and others.

As to whether it could have been prevented, I don't think anyone can determine that without access to all the information. Newspapers and social media are very good at selectively using - or deliberately misusing - information to suit their own agendas. Perhaps more could have been done, perhaps it couldn't. There is certainly a total lack of resource and support for people with mental illness in the UK, from those with mild cases to the seriously ill. Mental ill health hasn't been taken seriously, and funding as been cut and cut and cut. Perhaps that is where the debate needs to focus - how do we help those who need help? But even good mental health services will not prevent the rare tragedies. And it needs to be kept in perspective - these cases are tragic but exceptionally rare, and people with poor mental health are in far more danger from themselves and others than they pose to us.

This is really sensible post!

I live very close to where Emily was killed I also used to be a mental health nurse ,I don't think the killer will ever be released ,she has a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia ,and wasn't taking her medication ,what ever sentence she gets ,it will be up to the home office to decide whether she can be discharged from hospital,it's a horrific case ,but a lot of people commenting on the Bolton news website clearly have no idea about mental illness .

Our justice system is in a real state, but that’s got nothing to do with this horrific case. The outcome in poor Emily’s case is correct, there was no evidence to counter the very very strong evidence that her mental illness meant she could not be held accountable for murder, and therefore she was not. As a PP has said so eloquently, I don’t understand what people don’t understand about this. It is a tragic case, but don’t blame the Justice system. If fault lies anywhere I suspect it’s in the lack of appropriate support for mental health issues in this country, but I don’t know enough about the case to know if this is true here.

Separately, hundreds of courts have been closed, legal aid has been slashed from people who need it, waiting time for cases to be heard are over two years in some cases, court hours extended making it very hard for many people to work as barristers if, for example, they have children they need to look after (so removing diversity from an already relatively diverse area). The government have openly started breaching laws without apology, and are targeting lawyers doing their jobs by bad mouthing them on social media and In the papers, when they are simply trying to get the government to comply with the law. They have been systematically undermining the justice system for years and it’s only getting worse.

It’s pretty clear from history that politicians who wish to run as a dictatorship purposefully pull apart the justice system and turn the public against it. People need to open their eyes to what’s going on.

I dont see how that case is relevant to the discussion of justice reform tbh? It was a very clear verdict?

*relatively undiverse

No it’s not “too soft”. Chronically underfunded though I’d reform that.

Like there are many cases that could illustrate a need for justice reform, but not this case.

@Moondust001 ...why are you on about?!you have really over thought this. I wasn’t being goady. The crap you’re banging on about hadnt even occurred to me! What an overreaction! I absolutely did NOT want a ‘hang them flog them’ response. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I read the case, read the comments and fancied a chat. But cheers for making me feel like extra shit today by making me out to be a prick, exactly what I needed.

I was appalled to read about it. The whole thing didn't seen to get coverage by the media at all. This woman shouldn't have been here in the first place let alone left to her own devices. I'd be sueing to the hilt if I was her parents god forbid.

@ShirleyShirleyShirley I was interested In peoples opinions too so thanks for posting. Ignore @Moondust001 they seem very angry and goady!!

@lollipoprainbow

I was appalled to read about it. The whole thing didn't seen to get coverage by the media at all. This woman shouldn't have been here in the first place let alone left to her own devices. I'd be sueing to the hilt if I was her parents god forbid.

So. Should we demand mental health check on borders? Which illnesses are ok and which are not? Do you check they are taking your medication? How could home office check? Should it be part of a visa application to be assessed by a psychologist? Is it for migrants or even for tourists?

@lollipoprainbow if you were to click very literally the second reply on this page, you’d see why you incorrectly think the media didn’t cover it (they did, extensively).

Why exactly do you think “she shouldn’t have been here?”

@KatieGGGG she entered the county illegally ??

The failings lie more with the mental health care she was receiving rather than the criminal justice system,mental health care has been chronically underfunded for many years ,in addition to the trust she was cared for in ,wastes the funding it does get and has massively reduced in patient beds over the past 15 or so years I know this as I used to work for them ,I think she's being treated at Ashworth hospital now and whatever sentence she gets ,she won't ever be released from hospital unless it's proved she is no longer a danger to others .