Our justice system

[ShirleyShirleyShirley]

I was reading about the devastating case of Emily Jones and in the comments on the news website people were discussing our justice system.

What are your thoughts? Do you think we’re ‘too soft’? Do you think it needs reform? What would you do to change it?

@lollipoprainbow

I was appalled to read about it. The whole thing didn't seen to get coverage by the media at all. This woman shouldn't have been here in the first place let alone left to her own devices. I'd be sueing to the hilt if I was her parents god forbid.

Maybe read what her parents have to say about it? There's a link upthread.

I’m at the criminal bar and have defended in several murder and manslaughter trials.
My thoughts on reading about this case were in order -
What an awful tragedy
I assumed she had pleaded guilty to manslaughter
I also assumed given the facts of the case that murder would not be established as lack of intent due to mental illness.
I was slightly surprised that the prosecution proceeded on murder and did not accept the plea to manslaughter.
Overriding thought - it’s dangerous to draw conclusions from media reports of cases - have seen this over and over again. Some things cannot be made public and as a result the public feel justice has not been done etc.
In this case from limited facts known it all felt as though it had been handled correctly (except still not sure why they pressed for murder which decision necessitated evidence etc)

The issue here is the failings in the mental health system and not the justice system. The case was dealt with entirely appropriately by the justice system. The defendant pleaded guilty to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility, she will be sentenced on this basis likely to a hospital order with a restriction, which means she cannot be released without the approval of the Home Secretary. There are though serious questions to be asked about the care she was receiving by the mental health team.

[quote lollipoprainbow]@KatieGGGG she entered the county illegally ?? [/quote]
She was granted asylum though so obviously there were reasons for her to seek it here even the way she did and these reasons were found to be valid. Hence the leave to remain.

@lollipoprainbow seeking asylum is not illegal try again.

Her application for asylum was successful.

She had leave to remain until 2024.

So now you know you’re misinformed, are you going to concede?

Or just say what you actually mean instead of veiling it in legality?

She was not convicted of murder because the prosecution recognised there was no realistic prospect of proving the killing was premeditated. She is a paranoid schizophrenic who had stopped taking her medication. Manslaughter does not necessarily mean a more lenient prison term and she is likely to be locked up for a long time. I sincerely hope the local mental health services are subject to an enquiry as there are clear failings on their part.

The case is unbearably ghastly and has been made more so for her parents by knuckle-dragging racists using their daughter’s image for their own ends.

no familiar with this case but a lot of things are not working. A lot of access to justice depends on how much money you have. Rape has been defacto decriminalised etc.

OP, your original post makes it very clear that your starting point is, our criminal justice system is too soft. You don't ask about the opposing view. You have posted it in AIBU. You report that others are saying it. You don't put forward any alternative perspectives. It is very manipulative to then claim "I didn't mean it like that".

This case has nothing to do with our justice system being "too soft". Had the prosecution had the evidence before trial, they would not have prosecuted for murder; the fact that they abandoned the prosecution for murder when they couldn't get a conviction in the face of the evidence can only be a good thing.

It is a terrible case, the issue though as PPs have said is our appalling approach to, attitudes to, and treatment of, mental illness. The justice system has nothing to do with it, it did not affect or influence the perpetrator in any way; a harsher punishment wouldn't have been a deterrent, and wouldn't rehabilitate her.

[quote lollipoprainbow]**@ShirleyShirleyShirley* I was interested In peoples opinions too so thanks for posting. Ignore @Moondust001* they seem very angry and goady!! [/quote]
Really? Yes, racism, prejudice and bigotry do make me angry. And that was exactly what this thread was designed to elicit; and describes perfectly the crap you are posting. If challenging those things and arguing for properly funded mental health services for people is angry and goady, then I totally agree that's what I am and what I will continue to be. And proud to be it too.

I think we need to focus on the outcome we want and then consider the optimal measures to achieve that. For me, the outcome is a safe society.

Punishment may be a deterrent to some but certainly not to all, otherwise nations/states with capital punishment would have much lower rates of murder/rape etc than they do. Looking around the world and through history I really don't see much correlation between the severity of judicial punishment and the levels of crime. I'm not suggesting we should go light on punishment but the focus should be on prevention. So I'd like to see more resources put into things like education, social services, MH care and policing than on longer sentences or harsher punishments.

@Shamoo absolutely spot on.

@lollipoprainbow

I was appalled to read about it. The whole thing didn't seen to get coverage by the media at all. This woman shouldn't have been here in the first place let alone left to her own devices. I'd be sueing to the hilt if I was her parents god forbid.

Aside from the fact that she was actually here legally at the time of the offence, who would you be 'suing to the hilt' and for what exactly? This case says more about the desperate state of MH services in this country than it does about the justice system.

It’s clear from this very distressing article that Emily’s father blames failure of mental health services for her death. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9021897/amp/Father-tragic-Emily-Jones-7-recalls-day-beautiful-little-soul-mate-killed.html

@KatieGGGG I'm not going to get into a discussion with you or @Moondust001 who seem intent on branding anyone who has a different opinion a bigot and racist ! Thank you and good day.

@HerFlowersToLove the mental health team who covered up that she had already tried to stab a 13 year old and knew she wasn't taking the correct medication yet deemed it perfectly acceptable to let her out unsupervised. Is that clear enough for you ???

[quote lollipoprainbow]**@KatieGGGG* I'm not going to get into a discussion with you or @Moondust001* who seem intent on branding anyone who has a different opinion a bigot and racist ! Thank you and good day. [/quote]
AKA "I've been proved wrong and don't like it so I'm going to storm off".

What you said about her being here illegally was demonstrably false. It's not about your opinion, it's about the facts of the matter.

@Lockheart absolutely not ! She entered the country illegally ? What part of that do you think is ok ???

@lollipoprainbow seeking asylum isn’t illegal. You’ve already been told this.

Thought you were flouncing off?

It's very hard with severe MH issues, isn't it. We had a case of one woman who was let out of institution, declared safe to public. Hours later she went to a shopping centre, bought knife and stabbed someone to death. It's just very hard for everyone involved, I guess. It lead to big discussion and some changes being outlined. So at least some sad positive. Maybe this sad event may help lead to some changes too

@SchrodingersImmigrant sensible comment.

I think institution might be wronga nd obsolete term. I am nkt sure? Not something I use commonly. Mental hospital?

@SchrodingersImmigrant Hospital is the correct term. We don't differentiate between other types of hospital when talking about physical illness, so apply the same style to mental health.

[quote Hayeahnobut]@SchrodingersImmigrant Hospital is the correct term. We don't differentiate between other types of hospital when talking about physical illness, so apply the same style to mental health.[/quote]
Thanks!

[quote lollipoprainbow]@Lockheart absolutely not ! She entered the country illegally ? What part of that do you think is ok ??? [/quote]
Illegal entry is decriminalised for refugees; Article 31 of the Refugee Convention. So she wasn't here illegally as she had leave to remain until 2024, and her method of entry isn't "illegal" per se as she came as a refugee.

@LauraMipsum thank you for explaining in a non goady way!