Do I give it to boss both barrels when I leave?

[fromtheritztotherubble]

Am a regular but have name-changed for this as my situation may be recognisable.

Have been in a very high-stress job for over 18 months and I'm a single parent with no family support (so essentially no unpaid childcare). Lockdown was utterly horrific for me and my DD. I have been working 10 hour days with lots of weekends and have had just two days leave since February (have booked holiday but have had to cancel every time due to lack of cover and volume of work).

My organisation isn't unpleasant and I have some nice colleagues but its horrifically understaffed and under-resourced. When the first lockdown happened we were warned it was going to be a rough ride etc and I understand that they had to really struggle to hold onto clients. So I have a degree of sympathy as they were trying to keep the business going.

But despite this they have been incredibly lacking in sympathy of my situation: I essentially couldn't home school at all because of work pressure and I spent most of lockdown working in one room with my DD in another on TV or YouTube. I relied upon screens to give me the undisturbed peace to do conference calls etc. It was horrible. In addition to this I was required to do an additional very stressful job which required me to start work every day at about 5.45am and have been doing this without a break for nearly nine months on top of the eight-nine hour "day job". I asked several times if I could be allowed to finish earlier or if any support could be brought to bear to allow me some time to do some home-schooling or spend a little time with my child and was fobbed off every time and told the business couldnt' afford this.

My mental health and my DD's mental health suffered massively and my DD has been in counselling since. She's fallen significantly behind at school. She's doing much better but we are both bearing the scars. I came close to having a breakdown. My GP has said I am at risk of burnout and has offered to sign me off on stress but I've declined.

When an opportunity to go to another job came up I jumped at it and am now moving. Predictably my current bosses have now bent over backwards to say they will accommodate me, offering me a pay-rise and magically finding the money for additional hires which they previously said they didn't have. I'm flattered but I basically don't trust them to honour this as I think its too little too late and the culture is too deeply embedded and have declined. The job I'm going to won't be stress-free by any stretch but it won't will be as under-resourced and I expect to have more support.

I'm going to see the big boss next week and I presume he will ask me why I'm leaving and for a bit of a debrief.

I'm still really quite angry about the way I've been treated, even though things have improved a lot since schools open. I feel there was a duty of care which they didn't uphold towards me and that there's been a particularly macho assumption that underpins this: its a business run largely by men who have wives who don't work and nannies and it doesn't cross their mind to think about the negative impact this kind of work culture has on employees who are the primary carers of children (ie women and single parents in particular). I'm far from alone here and I'm sure lots of people will recognise the syndrome. I'm an extremely hard worker and I don't expect special dispensation because I'm a single parent but there was a total lack of engagement with the horrible impact that the workload had on my family life.

I want to tell him when I see him how pissed off I am: partly as catharsis for me but I also think there's an opportunity to highlight the fact that this work culture will alienate the senior women who they are always banging on about wanting to attract and that its a potential business risk to them. Businesses of this kind are constantly talking about the importance of diverse hiring and allowing women to succeed but apparently don't see the impact that their culture has on them.

But I also don't want to burn my boats with them or come across as a diva. And I have recognise the fact that they were driving people really hard basically because they wanted to keep the lights on and avoid redundancies - like most businesses they were frightened of going under.

Do I tell him in a diplomatic and assertive way how I feel and why I feel that its in his interests to change the culture? Or do I just let it go, keep the peace and chalk it up to experience?

Personally I wouldn't, its a job not a prison sentence, you could have left you could have got signed off with stress but you chose not to.

I don't understand how anyone can imagine that people can just quit jobs. You must have led such a privileged life to think everyone has options.

FWIW, OP, I have just done what you are planning, except I didn't quit.

I explained to my boss' boss that 'my relationship with her and my immediate line manager was the proximal cause of my almost committing suicide". I wasn't exaggerating.

I still work for her and him. Things are much better now.

@donquixotedelamancha that's where you are wrong. We live pay cheque to pay cheque and are in tens of thousands of debt due to an unfortunate period of not working. However I would still not stay in a job where the horrendous work load led to my child having to have counselling. Sometimes when you have had literally nothing to your name you learn what your priorities are.

If you have a child in the mix then it's no longer all about you. Some kind of backup childcare has to be in place if you have both child and work. For my own situation this changed greatly as much of this was a combination of after school clubs and grandparent pick up help - the first has been suspended and we consider the 2nd too vulnerable to go back to because of age and distance from our location. We had a plan in place pre-2020 but it's now gone, so something else has to be done probably by February. This is not my workplace's problem but it is also not something that can be solved too quickly.

If you are working mostly with people who do not have children (about 75 percent of those I work with) or who don't have a particular issue personally with childcare because of age of kids or unfettered involvement of partner (about 15 - 20 percent more of the team) then they won't see your issue at all. They can give all of themselves to the job, and by doing so they will shape into the 'senior employees' (women or men) that workplaces are looking for. The more of the 'people with no childcare issues' there are together in a team, the more you will feel like the odd one out in my experience. I fully see that the workplace employs as near to 100 percent of you as you will give, not you and your dependents who take some of that energy, but it's hard and you are entitled to go for something more suited to all of you. Don't let them buy you - it sounds as if they're attempting that because you did actually shoulder the relentlessness (and you and your family already paid for that).

Its not true that people without children or with no child care issues don’t see the problem.

My workplace is infinitely understanding that families, children, even pets have needs that have to be met. Our families are the reason we work!

My boss has grown children and I have none. When someone working for us says “child” or “parent” we bend over backward to accommodate their needs. I’ve canceled international travel due to a sick cat FGS. Everyone understood.

OP I’m glad you're leaving there. Better places exist.

Well done for finding another job. I would definitely let the big boss know the reason for your departure, but I would phrase it very differently than most people suggested.
I would emphasise unsustainable workload, you going extra mile picking up that additional role requiring an early start, the fact you had only 2 days off in almost a year. That you've escalated the matter on multiple occasions, but all your concerns were disregarded. You are disappointed that only after you've submitted your resignation your manager started to listen and it shouldn't have come to that. After that I would add all the nice things you have to say about this company.
This way you won't burn your bridges but it would allow you to throw your boss under the bus

I'd be diplomatic and give them the feedback if they ask.

'While I enjoyed working here, I'm leaving as I found a company that has a more flexible working culture that takes into account people's personal circumstances, whatever they may be'.

I wouldn't mention the childcare, but I would talk about the long days and cancelled holidays.

If you make this into a childcare issue, they just won't hire women again. Many steps backwards for the sisterhood.

However, it's perfectly reasonable to highlight:

• Inability to take holiday to recharge due to lack of resourcing
• Unrealistic volume of work due to lack of resourcing
• Lack of flexibility with hours, even though this would not have impacted on your ability to meet the business's needs (if true)
• Poor management (it sounds as if your line manager didn't notice and/or care that you were about to burn out)
• Disconnect between the company's public values and embedded culture (if true)

The above are very real issues that impact on women and men. They're all things that need to be addressed, and any one of them on their own would be justification for leaving.

I’ll only add. You have no idea what the actual culture of the new place is. I used to work for an employee that wins all the awards around best employer etc etc. The hype (externally) is nuts.
Internally? It’s one of the most toxic environments I have worked in.

If you want to help, then suggest policies they could implement for employees. People don’t just have children, they have parents they care for etc etc. The company needs to support people’s personal lives from the sound of things, not just women who are mothers.

PS Just to add - I say they won't hire women again if you make this a childcare issue, because it doesn't even occur to many employers that single male parents exist and/or that not all women have children or can/want to have children in the future.

It really irritates every time our big boss talks about mums in the pandemic. He's a father. I know he's a father. He never uses the term parent. I feel sorry for his wife because it's clear from his language that he expects all the childcare to always fall onto her.

I am totally against what bluntness said! In lockdown when everyone was working from home regardless of whether there was one or two parents in the house, if they had kids then work had to give in some way. Yes it had to reach levels of uncomfortable for the parents so they looked as willing as possible but children can’t homeschool themselves if they are very young or pre school age kids can’t be left unsupervised. I saw examples of daily rotas between parents starting at 7am to 9pm to cover a 7.5 hour day or someone doing 6-12 and the other parent doing 12-6 regularly and then some emails in the evening. I think the inappropriate action on the workplace here was maintaining the pressure to work over and about contracted hours and not offering flexibility. If you wanted to make a particular point you could get some actual examples of what the lockdown rules were from your new workplace and say it shows their values are more in line with what yours.

It's a real shame that your current employer wasn't prepared to make your WFH life easier for you , as you had childcare issues

It's a real shame that your current employer wasn't prepared to hire more staff to help you and ensure that you could take annual leave etc

But in a 'never in our life time seen before pandemic' , I expect your current employer was fighting to keep the business afloat

You now know how that employer reacts towards staff in a crisis and you have found a new job because you'd rather work somewhere which you THINK might be more accommodating, should March to August happen again

You've told your current employer the basic reasons why you're leaving. They know the score.

What's the point in saying anything else? How does that help anyone?

I wouldn’t. For many of the reasons already stated, but also because businesses were also thrown into the total shit by governments decision to close schools and not provide alternative childcare.

You and your daughter were badly let down OP, but it wasn’t entirely the fault of your workplace, for all that they could have handled things better at the time.

Just say “I am leaving as per the terms of my contract”. Nothing else needs to be said.

I would stick to the basics and leave out the not friendly to woman bit, as it's basically not friendly to parents of either gender.

I would say that the main reason you are leaving is lack of work life balance, and it was unsustainable to expect 5.45 am starts followed by a standard working day on an ongoing basis. Going forward that duty should be rotated and people allowed to finish at an earlier time to make up for the early start.

You can also say that your new job is prepared to offer flexibility both ways and that is important to you and to many employees.

I also hope going forward, you stand up for yourself a bit more. I've recently been in a situation where my work started getting overwhelming but I've managed to nip it in the bud. The very early starts gave you a perfect opportunity to state - not ask- that you'd be taking 2 hours off during the day.

But above all keep it brief and don't close any doors for the future. You have a new job, your actions will cause them more pause for thought than your words, and sadly if you get at all emotional then they'll discount it anyway.

Doing an exit interview is pretty standard and you should give them the facts. This is not about being female, this is about shitty treatment and them not stepping up to support you doing your job, when you were stepping up to do all of the extras they asked of you - not a level playing field of you vs the company and not fair, or a good way to treat a valued employee.

Make sure you get all of the unused holiday paid to you.

In the meeting be calm and professional, have a list of the key points and don't get into an argument. If they challenge: "you asked for my reasons for leaving, and here they are. You may have a different view, but this is mine - and you asked for it so please respect what I'm saying".

Don't worry about burning bridges. It's likely you'd never go back anyway. And if they don't listen to you why the hell would you ever go back?

Congratulations on the new job, you'll smash it!

Have a lovely Christmas with your DD. And don't worry about school, she will catch up. Now you're out of that toxic situation you can rebuild a routine that allows the two of you to be together positively.

Happy 2021!

OP, the fact they have tried to keep you shows they now value you. A pity they didn’t earlier in the year.

I think I would say nothing at your exit interview. Yes, your company was in a difficult situation but it sounds like you shouldered a massive (and unnecessary) burden.

I don’t think they deserve to be told why you’re leaving and even if you do tell them it’s too late for you.

I’d say I found a post which suits me better and leave it at that. Remain dignified and wish them well. They might be left wondering but who cares? You don’t owe them anything.

Personally I would just want to leavening good nite and not burn bridges
But is easy to see why work place also don’t change or become more family friendly
Very tricky one as you’ve also got to look after yourself

You don’t need to tell them why you’re leaving. They know darned well why - which is why they suddenly offered the things you had been asking for, once they knew you were willing to leave.

So I would just give the blandest reasons for leaving, career development etc etc blah blah.

Without a doubt leave gracefully, on good terms.

Your new employer knows your current employer & you say yourself that it will do you no good to burn your bridges.
Think only about yourself, your career and your new job.

In your situation, the very fact that you are leaving is enough.
They don’t want you to go and have made this very clear.
Yet, you are still going and have turned down all incentives.
A clear message has been given without you having to say a word.

I suppose what I was getting at is whether its worth seeking to try to influence their approach to this when I leave

I honestly would not bother. No matter how you phrase it you will sound aggrieved.
Put them behind you.

Don't worry about burning bridges. It's likely you'd never go back anyway. And if they don't listen to you why the hell would you ever go back?

I disagree. You never know who knows who or when your paths might cross again. Be constructive and keep emotion out of it.