Do I give it to boss both barrels when I leave?

[fromtheritztotherubble]

Am a regular but have name-changed for this as my situation may be recognisable.

Have been in a very high-stress job for over 18 months and I'm a single parent with no family support (so essentially no unpaid childcare). Lockdown was utterly horrific for me and my DD. I have been working 10 hour days with lots of weekends and have had just two days leave since February (have booked holiday but have had to cancel every time due to lack of cover and volume of work).

My organisation isn't unpleasant and I have some nice colleagues but its horrifically understaffed and under-resourced. When the first lockdown happened we were warned it was going to be a rough ride etc and I understand that they had to really struggle to hold onto clients. So I have a degree of sympathy as they were trying to keep the business going.

But despite this they have been incredibly lacking in sympathy of my situation: I essentially couldn't home school at all because of work pressure and I spent most of lockdown working in one room with my DD in another on TV or YouTube. I relied upon screens to give me the undisturbed peace to do conference calls etc. It was horrible. In addition to this I was required to do an additional very stressful job which required me to start work every day at about 5.45am and have been doing this without a break for nearly nine months on top of the eight-nine hour "day job". I asked several times if I could be allowed to finish earlier or if any support could be brought to bear to allow me some time to do some home-schooling or spend a little time with my child and was fobbed off every time and told the business couldnt' afford this.

My mental health and my DD's mental health suffered massively and my DD has been in counselling since. She's fallen significantly behind at school. She's doing much better but we are both bearing the scars. I came close to having a breakdown. My GP has said I am at risk of burnout and has offered to sign me off on stress but I've declined.

When an opportunity to go to another job came up I jumped at it and am now moving. Predictably my current bosses have now bent over backwards to say they will accommodate me, offering me a pay-rise and magically finding the money for additional hires which they previously said they didn't have. I'm flattered but I basically don't trust them to honour this as I think its too little too late and the culture is too deeply embedded and have declined. The job I'm going to won't be stress-free by any stretch but it won't will be as under-resourced and I expect to have more support.

I'm going to see the big boss next week and I presume he will ask me why I'm leaving and for a bit of a debrief.

I'm still really quite angry about the way I've been treated, even though things have improved a lot since schools open. I feel there was a duty of care which they didn't uphold towards me and that there's been a particularly macho assumption that underpins this: its a business run largely by men who have wives who don't work and nannies and it doesn't cross their mind to think about the negative impact this kind of work culture has on employees who are the primary carers of children (ie women and single parents in particular). I'm far from alone here and I'm sure lots of people will recognise the syndrome. I'm an extremely hard worker and I don't expect special dispensation because I'm a single parent but there was a total lack of engagement with the horrible impact that the workload had on my family life.

I want to tell him when I see him how pissed off I am: partly as catharsis for me but I also think there's an opportunity to highlight the fact that this work culture will alienate the senior women who they are always banging on about wanting to attract and that its a potential business risk to them. Businesses of this kind are constantly talking about the importance of diverse hiring and allowing women to succeed but apparently don't see the impact that their culture has on them.

But I also don't want to burn my boats with them or come across as a diva. And I have recognise the fact that they were driving people really hard basically because they wanted to keep the lights on and avoid redundancies - like most businesses they were frightened of going under.

Do I tell him in a diplomatic and assertive way how I feel and why I feel that its in his interests to change the culture? Or do I just let it go, keep the peace and chalk it up to experience?

I would highlight why you are leaving, but you never know when you will run into someone again, and also maybe you would want to return to that company if circumstances are different in the future.

Therefore I would be VERY diplomatic.

@Trisolaris

Childcare issues do disproportionately affect women and if they intend to attract more senior women there is a lot of research to show that workplaces that are supportive of flexible working have a better chance of succeeding in this objective.

Sure, but this doesn’t mean they only impact women as the op is implying nor does it mean it impacts all women. Many women are not impacted and many men are impacted. The fact it’s disproportionate doesn’t change that.

And flexible working should only be available if the company can afford it. And for both men and women. This isn’t the 1950s. If they offer flexible working it needs to be for parents. Not just women.

So again the ops desire to make this about gender isn’t stacking up. Also flexible working is not something rhe company offer parents. Many companies simply can’t do this. Ultimately child care, or any other caring responsibility, be it your elderly aunt, your parents, or your dogs, is your responsibility and you need to make yourself available for work as per the contract yoh agreed.

Hi OP - I'm doing similar to you, leaving for a less-pressured job as I felt that my current company was pretty poor in understanding the difficulties I faced in the first lockdown.

I've chosen not to say anything, mainly because I don't think they'll take it on board. Since I resigned it's become clear that I've been treated unfairly as I work slightly reduced hours (a couple of people presumed this was why I was leaving, but I had no idea before this), so I've been gritting my teeth to be whiter than white for my last few weeks.

@waytheleaveswork

I'd phrase it only in positives which make the negatives implicit-

I am leaving to work in a more supportive organisation where my wellbeing is taken into account.

I am leaving for a job that is more compatible with my family values

My manager was unable to take my views in to account so I have decided to build my skills elsewhere.

Be calm. Non emotional. Your message will be clear.

I agree with this. Be positive but clear. Do not give anyone either barrel, let alone both - it won't end well.

@Bluntness100 The OP hasn’t said this only affects women, she has said that this also impacts men but I think that she makes good points about senior women being likely to be disproportionately affected. Therefore it would be reasonable to mention in her reasons for leaving that she is leaving for a better work/life balance and flexibility and ask the company to consider, if they are truly committed to hiring/retaining more senior women the impact that this is likely to have on gender diversity.

How does someone turn down being signed off work? If a Dr decides you are unfit to work, then surely you are unfit to work?

Don’t blow up at your boss. No point in burning professional bridges! I would have similar urges to you to tell it how it is, but it’s really pointless in the long term.

Leave on a good note. I completely understand how you feel though. I'm a single parent too. It's been quite traumatic juggling work and childcare over the years. My last employer was quite harsh at times expecting me to work on, come in earlier, complete online learning on my day off (unpaid too!). I bit the bullet and left. On good terms. You need your last employer as a reference and it's a small world too. What if your new employer happened to know your old one? Don't burn your bridges. Also, it's tough out there in the workplace. A lot of companies are working hard to keep afloat right now.

Good luck in your new job

@DumplingsAndStew

How does someone turn down being signed off work? If a Dr decides you are unfit to work, then surely you are unfit to work?

You just say no. If a doctor says it, it then doesn’t become the law. You don’t have to follow their advice. Becayse that’s all it is advice.

A cautionary tale. Many years ago I managed a guy who was an utter and complete pain in the arse right up until the day I left. A couple of years later I worked for an agency that was commissioned to shortlist applications for a job with a client. I did the shortlisting. Guess who applied for it? And guess who didn’t get an interview?

You’re starting a new job, your former employer’s working practices are no longer your problem and raising them could discourage them from employing women in future. My advice would be say nothing and leave with grace.

@DumplingsAndStew

How does someone turn down being signed off work? If a Dr decides you are unfit to work, then surely you are unfit to work?

Because DumplingsAndStew if I got signed off on stress it would massively damage my career. In the industry I work in it marks you out as a malingerer, as someone who cant cope. It could have gone into a reference to my next employer etc.

The doctor's note was proffered to me as a backstop should I need it. I would only have done it as an absolute last resort. As Bluntness says, its not the law that you have to follow advice.

I wouldn’t waste my breath. They don’t really care.

Last time a man asked me to be candid about why I was leaving and how he could improve things, he proceeded to tell me I was wrong after I answered. As in “it was not ideal to find out that I had a new boss when my old one changed his title on LinkedIn instead of from a personal call or organizational announcement.” His response was basically “I don’t see an issue with that.”

Illl give feedback when people start paying me for it. Otherwise I’m not wasting my time.

From experience, absolutely not worth you giving candid thoughts. A shit employer will not magically change.

I wouldn't waste any more precious emotional energy on it and just focus on your new job.

Congratulations getting out

For those asking about references and my old employer knowing my new one etc: they do know each other. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I have no intention of being rude or aggressive or self-pitying and was only questioning whether or not it was worth trying to give constructive advice.

Bluntness

"So again the ops desire to make this about gender isn’t stacking up."

Respectfully disagree. It's not a deliberate strategy of discriminating against women but at this level in high pressure industries it is overwhelmingly women who are affected. This comes up time and time again in 360 degree appraisals -- I've seen feedback from other women in my organisation at less senior levels to this effect.

Again, I'm not expecting my employer to give me carve-outs based on being a single parent, but when I joined I was very explicit about the fact that I would require some flexibility around, for example, start and finish times due to childcare issues, which were promised to me. I wouldn't have taken the job had I not been given assurances on this. These were honoured up until COVID and wfh and then they went out of the window.

If they were totally unapologetic about being an organisation that doesn't do flexibility or work/life balance I would have more understanding. But they are always saying they need more women at higher levels etc, yet seem to have only the faintest grasp of the fact that women with children are far more likely to be burdened with limitations due to childcare and that these are likely to be more onerous during a pandemic.

You can't have it both ways. Either you recognise the need to promote women to senior posts and support them on the way or you don't.

I vote for no. Just leave and keep a good bridge with them. You never know what will happen in future.
If they ask why you are leaving, I would say the long hours did not agree with my family life. And leave it so.
C9ngratulations on your new job.

@DumplingsAndStew

How does someone turn down being signed off work? If a Dr decides you are unfit to work, then surely you are unfit to work?

Presumably you work in public sector or certainly outside of a high pressure private sector job.

My gp offered to sign me off when my DH left the week after I was diagnosed with a lifelong disability. I knew it would be absolute.career suicide. It shouldn't be, but that certainly is the case in many industries.

I would t bother trying to talk about things. I’m in the same boat, I have to keep quiet about my new job until February

You are likely to be wasting your time telling them - but well done you on taking your talents elsewhere rather than flogging a dead horse.

If you do say anything I would keep it brief.

Something like:
‘This role is not compatible with being the involved and engaged parent I want to be. I feel more confident that my new employer will allow me to combining adding value to the organisation alongside supporting my child.’

Don’t make it gender specific. Those men working all hours are poor parents too. Make it clear that you want to do a good job, and want to contribute.

They probably have to learn the hard way through people leaving.

@Homebody12

It’s not a childcare issue though is it. It’s a pandemic issue, the best childcare arrangements in the world went out of the window during lockdown 1. This is the sexist crap men get away with saying whilst having a nanny, wife and grand parents at home to pick up their slack. Their actions were unreasonable during a national emergency, children and family always come first and I didn’t hesitate to let my staff know that.

I am in full agreement with this post!

OP I was doing the same as you... it was horrifically stressful. I think you should raise it. Don’t apologise for it, the way you’ve stated it here is very calm and matter of fact and I would do the same.

I know that weird feeling you’re going through, is it worth it or should I just walk away... in the balance, I would raise it all, just as you did here. You come across as a very hard working and conscientious colleague and employee. Don’t hide.

I’m a single mother also, I have a high income job and I get how hard it is, and the efforts you’ve gone to to remove the childcare issue from visibility and I know that is exhausting in itself. They need to make an environment where you and others like us are heard.

I just changed jobs recently, I buckled after final interview when a clause in the contract was raised that would seriously change my work life balance. I realised that night I couldn’t take the job even if I was offered it. I felt punched in the stomach to realise my career was hitting a halt because of work life balance (and trust me I went over and over every option and workaround).

I called the company to withdraw my application. They actually volunteered to remove the clause and I feel so good that 1) I put kids first 2) they valued me and offered an alternative. I didn’t withdraw in the hope of a negotiation. For me it was going to be impossible and life is hard enough. So maybe things are changing a little... we need to be heard. Isn’t it terrible we think raising this is a whine when the reality is, work life balance will make or break you, hard.

Good luck with your move to the new job by the way!

I completely hear you OP and thank you for raising this.

Long before lockdown and covid, as a wfh freelancer I have dealt with the issues you describe for many years: it destroyed my MH and has ruined my children's lives. I simply could not give them the lives they deserve.

Get it out there anonymously on Twitter and sm, you would be doing women a big favour. But please protect your own interests.

Fathers IME do not pick up their share of the responsibility, employers don't adequately recognise what single mothers do, and I for one am completely sick to death of pretending they do.

Even

What about a shit sandwich?

"I really appreciated the massive efforts made to keep the lights on during the first lockdown. Unfortunately, the hours required weren't compatible with my personal circumstances as a parent of young children (don't say mother, don't say single parent, it shouldn't have been possible for a man either) and so I'm moving to a more flexible role. I've really enjoyed my time here and particularly appreciated the chance to develop X,y,z. I'm happy to be leaving on good terms and hope we can stay in touch.

Bluntness, I think you're being completely disingenuous to insist childcare problems over lockdown weren't a gendered problem. There have been numerous studies showing otherwise.

*wouldnt” bother that should say

Hey OP - sorry just to add - I just posted but had missed your final post, sorry! I really get what you’re saying. That sounds very like the company I have just left. You’re right to call out the reality for their policies and where they are just lip service to an “issue”. I agree with you, this issue predominantly is a woman's experience. The vast majority of single parent households are headed by the mother. And in the majority of families with both parents, childcare arrangements still continue to be women’s responsibility and any social policy researcher will confirm that.

Sorry my blood got a bit up there! This is a real issue for me. I’m also living away from all family so there is no childcare back up of any sort (and I live here so the kids can see their dad).

YouKnowWhoo great that you were able to get that clause removed. I can totally understand that sinking feeling when you know that your success at work is going to be limited by childcare and that your ability to parent is going to be limited by work. It's a lose/lose.

I think attitudes actually changed a lot during the pandemic in a positive way: I saw fathers going onto Zoom calls with small children on their laps (which was virtually unheard of before) and I think a lot of men in particular were forced to re-evaluate some of the rules and restrictions which were in place before and the absurd culture of children and childcare issues being taboo. I think once the economy recovers we will all be in a strong position for this -- men as well as women. And hopefully this will impact the absurd culture of presenteeism which has dominated high pressure industries. Being seen to be at your desk for no other reason that that's what all the other people are doing.

MindyStClaire yes this is essentially the approach I will be taking.

@waytheleaveswork

I'd phrase it only in positives which make the negatives implicit-

I am leaving to work in a more supportive organisation where my wellbeing is taken into account.

I am leaving for a job that is more compatible with my family values

My manager was unable to take my views in to account so I have decided to build my skills elsewhere.

Be calm. Non emotional. Your message will be clear.

Definitely this approach You never know of the new place will be a great improvement until you need to ask for leave. You do have rights as a worker before burning out