Co-parenting and smacking

[user1471598758]

Ex recently smacked 4 yo as a form of discipline (and for what sounds like a perfectly normal misdemeanor for a tired child in Reception).
Have tried to have a conservation with him about how strongly opposed to smacking i am, to which he laughed and said his child and his choice too.
I’m devastated. Not my children have both expressed fear as they’ve been told it will happen again if they misbehave at all.
Can I withhold contact over this? Where would I stand and what would you do?

that's the bit I can't get my head around, how people can justify hitting a little child but it's awful for a grown adult to hit someone their own size, how does that logic make any sense what so ever?

Well, when you hit another adult it's usually a slap around the face or a punch. Nobody who says they 'smack' their child punches them or slaps them in the face. It's a slap on the bum that is more shocking than painful. I don't really see how they are quite the same as you are making out.

Plus, I don't find it all that awful when another adult hits another adult, depending on context.

fwiw, I don't smack one, but it's something that's been raised in my extended family, we've had this debate ourselves many times.

@MoonElk

As long as it's not really hard and it's not a regular occurrence, I wouldn't think much of it. I never understand the argument of 'you wouldn't do it to an adult, would you?' because there's lots of things I wouldn't do to an adult that I would do to a child - put them in a time out, for example, or ground them. Although this whole 'you wouldn't hit an adult' thing is silly, because so many people do actually hit other adults who have wronged them (and while that is illegal, I think sometimes those adults deserved it)

The naughty step? I thought that form of shaming went out years ago.

And grounding? Crikes.

@MoonElk

that's the bit I can't get my head around, how people can justify hitting a little child but it's awful for a grown adult to hit someone their own size, how does that logic make any sense what so ever?

Well, when you hit another adult it's usually a slap around the face or a punch. Nobody who says they 'smack' their child punches them or slaps them in the face. It's a slap on the bum that is more shocking than painful. I don't really see how they are quite the same as you are making out.

Plus, I don't find it all that awful when another adult hits another adult, depending on context.

Oh OK, so slapping another adult on the arse would be OK then

*The naughty step? I thought that form of shaming went out years ago.

And grounding? Crikes*

If the naughty step’s “shaming” and grounding is out, how do you discipline your children? Or do you just not bother?

Where do yous live its illegal in scotland now.

@VinylDetective

*The naughty step? I thought that form of shaming went out years ago.

And grounding? Crikes*

If the naughty step’s “shaming” and grounding is out, how do you discipline your children? Or do you just not bother?

I would like to know the same thing.

We had our children in the late 80's and di smack them on rare occasions. Looking back it didn't add a single positive thing to our parenting and was totally unnecessary. It was the done thing at the time, particularly amongst the Christian groups we mixed with. It didn't damage our children as such, but they do say now that they were scared in that moment and I'm not comfortable with that. They were well behaved children, but I don't think the smacking had anything to do with that.

My daughter has never smacked her children and we wouldn't either. They are well behaved too. The family court took it very seriously that their dad smacked one of the children, so it might not be illegal, but they did see it as an issue.

I really feel for you, OP. For various reasons me and my husband had decided not to have children but when DD came along I was really worried as my husband agrees with smacking but I am 100% against it. We had a conversation about it when she was born and he promised never to smack her, didn't stop me worrying though, but now it's illegal here in Scotland it's stopped my worry as I know I could simply report him if the problem ever arose.
As above poster said I do not think a family court would look upon it favourably at all anymore even though it is legal in England. Is there anyone you can go to for advice. Fearing a parent due to this is something that can follow a child into adulthood, if there's nothing you can do about your ex, you can be that safe haven your children need, who they won't fear, and who they know they can come to with any problem.
All the best

The naughty step? I thought that form of shaming went out years ago.

And grounding? Crikes.

Oh of course, there can be no 'negative' punishment at all these days...

You do know they still use time-outs/sit on a chair in primary schools? Detentions are a thing in secondary schools, is that shaming?

I take it if your kid misbehaves very badly, they still get to go the cinema at the weekend and go to their friend's for a sleepover? OK.

@VinylDetective

*The naughty step? I thought that form of shaming went out years ago.

And grounding? Crikes*

If the naughty step’s “shaming” and grounding is out, how do you discipline your children? Or do you just not bother?

Talk to them.

But I understand everyone is different (the playground tells me we are very much in the minority).

Talk to them.

What works for one child does not necessarily work for all. If I could get away with doing things that were 'against the rules' and still get to do all my usual activities, and just get a 'talk' from my mum, why wouldn't I break the rules again? No bad came of it the first time around.

I'd have snuck out the window to see my friend's every night as a teen if I knew I was just gonna get 'talked to' when I got home

I remember being a primary school child and I said something cheeky to my stepmum - I was sent to my room, then summoned to the kitchen so my dad could smack me. I was so scared I wet myself before he got to me, and I remember the total shock in his face - looking back, I don't think before then he had any idea how terrifying it was for a small child to be hit by someone so much bigger and stronger. It was just 'discipline'.

Didn't stop him using the same 'discipline' on my little half-brother years later though.

Personally I think adults who hit kids in this day and age, when it is so widely frowned upon, are the absolute scum of the earth. How pathetic to have so little control of yourself, or how sadistic to act like that when you're collected enough to do otherwise.

As to what you can do, in the eyes of the law not sure you have a leg to stand on. But I'd ask my kids if they want to go when his time comes around, and if they don't don't make them go. Advise him the reason, that they are scared of him and don't want to go - do it by text message so it's confirmed. Keep or record his response however it comes.

Advise him that until the kids are happy to go to his again it will be supervised phone/video contact only, and if he doesn't like it then he can take you to court and make his case there for the right to beat his primary age kids.

Even if he does that and gets visitation mandated, at least your kids will know you stood up for them and were not willing to just stand back and let them be beaten.

@MailMay

*What works for one child does not necessarily work for all. If I could get away with doing things that were 'against the rules' and still get to do all my usual activities, and just get a 'talk' from my mum, why wouldn't I break the rules again? No bad came of it the first time around.

I'd have snuck out the window to see my friend's every night as a teen if I knew I was just gonna get 'talked to' when I got home grin*

Well in this case we have the control group that is the OP - she manages to discipline these children without assaulting them. So there's nothing about the kid that means her ex couldn't do the same. He just prefers the quick and dirty physical domination route.

right to beat his primary age kids.

Fucking hell. When I think of someone 'beating' a child I think of them being hit and kicked, often with a belt or some other object, multiple times, being left with bruises and welts etc. I don't think a smack on the bum that doesn't leave any marks is enough to be called a 'beating'.

I don't smack mine, never happened, but I still think 'beating' is ott.

@VeniceQueen2004

My response you replied to wasn't about smacking in that case, it was a response to a poster who said they basically don't punish a child at all, they just 'talk' to them. I fail to see how ever child in the world would just do as was expected of them because otherwise their parents will 'talk' to them - god forbid, they might even say they were 'disappointed' in you!

Fucking hell. When I think of someone 'beating' a child I think of them being hit and kicked, often with a belt or some other object, multiple times, being left with bruises and welts etc. I don't think a smack on the bum that doesn't leave any marks is enough to be called a 'beating'.

He hit a kid. He's laughed and said he'll happily hit them again. I don't think it's unreasonable to refer to this as beating. He wants to put his child in fear.

The problem is that this is actually legal. I hate people who hit children, but I doubt you will be able to withhold contact over it.

@MailMay

My response you replied to wasn't about smacking in that case, it was a response to a poster who said they basically don't punish a child at all, they just 'talk' to them. I fail to see how ever child in the world would just do as was expected of them because otherwise their parents will 'talk' to them - god forbid, they might even say they were 'disappointed' in you! hmm

Have a look at the book 'How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen" - it's an absolutely brilliant read with real strategies to ingrain this stuff. And once you have the pattern in place that you talk things out together rather than shout, shame and smack, this can be adapted into the teenage years. It really works - I was at a loss with my 3yo once she started acting up as I was against hitting but couldn't seem to get her to listen to me. It's about HOW you talk to them, engaging with them on their level - an initial shot of empathy/articulating their feelings and motivations for them gives you the window to their rational mind so you can reason with them.

So much of it is about seeing it from where they're coming from rather than just getting angry about the effect their behaviour is having on you, otherwise you just end up talking past each other.

It's not always as easy as dispensing a quick threat or a quick punishment (naughty step etc). But I can only see those things escalating really. What if child won't sit on the naughty step? What if they run off/hit you when you try to put them back? How long do you want to be having a physical fight with a person 3 foot tall? How long before that fight gets out of hand and one or both of you get hurt?

Basically, with all the shame-based punishments ("go to your room, go to the naughty step") something is holding them there. Very likely fear that if they don't do what you say they'll get something worse. So fundamentally it's still intimidation rather than 'discipline', which I define as teaching them your boundaries and how to control themselves. Which is a longer, more complicated job than just securing compliance on a case by case basis.

I don't think it's unreasonable to refer to this as beating.

I do. We obviously disagree. I know people who have actually been beaten, it's far more aggressive and violent. I wouldn't take another adult seriously if they said they'd been 'beaten' but had no bruising or marks.

So fundamentally it's still intimidation rather than 'discipline', which I define as teaching them your boundaries and how to control themselves. Which is a longer, more complicated job than just securing compliance on a case by case basis.

This is the part that I never get. So you teach your kids your boundaries and how to control themselves, but what if they don't want to control themselves? What if they know it is wrong to steal chocolate, but they want to steal the chocolate so they do? What if they cross your boundaries, even though they know they shouldn't?

Also, if you do not use shame-based/fear punishments, as you say something is 'holding' them in their room e.g. the fear of something more if they don't stay there... What is the point in having 'boundaries' in the first place if you aren't going to do anything bad when the kid crosses them?

'These are my boundaries, don't cross them'
'Why not?'
'Because it's wrong, makes people feel bad etc...'
Ok, so what if they still do it? You just talk to them again? You don't have boundaries if your kids can cross them without any come-back.

Wouldn't smack a child.

But the naughty step is shaming now? For goodness sake don't be so dramatic.

I smacked my children a couple of times when they were little. I'd agree with a pp - it did nothing good in terms of child discipline and added nothing positive to my parenting repertoire. But on the other hand, it didnt do anything terrible either. So I guess what you have to weigh up is the potential harm done versus the positive influence he brings into their lives. And act accordingly.

I didn’t smack mine but “talking to them” would have been a waste of breath. Bad behaviour should have consequences so it was “if you do x, y will happen” and they knew I meant it. The naughty step, grounding and withdrawal of privileges were all used.

ok, so what if they still do it? You just talk to them again? You don't have boundaries if your kids can cross them without any come-back.

So this is so situation dependent hard and fast rules are irrelevant. And the main thing is, in the absence of SEN, if you instigate communication and empathy as the basis of your discipline early doors you don't tend to find kids are ghastly for the sake of it.

Punishments/consequences/whatever you want to call them should be relevant to the crime. So if child throws a toy that isn't for throwing, and won't stop when told not to, you gets taken away. No need for a totally irrelevant punishment like a smack or a naughty step.

My daughter was being a mardy so and so at the playground just now (long day at school so tired); couldn't reset her with usual hug and deep breaths, so I took her home. She wasn't happy about it; but she wasn't happy anyway so hey ho. She's now had a veg out and a drink and she's sorted. No need to have a massive "discipline" moment. I'm sure I could have smacked her; but I don't think either of us would have felt better for it.

Stealing? Not one I've had to deal with yet. But I think I'd get the child involved in returning what was stolen and making a meaningful apology, and if they'd been able to do it due to trust bring extended that had been breached (allowed to wander round the shop for e.g) then in future that freedom would be withdrawn until I could trust them again (based on good behaviour and or articulation of their understanding of why it was wrong).

I mean when I have an older child I may have a different view - but by then time outs and naughty steps have pretty much ceased to be appropriate anyway, so if you haven't done the work on communication and self control you're a bit fucked anyway - unless you're going to up the ante with physical restraint. By that point, you really jeed to have established the kind of relationship/outlook that other people matter; doesn't mean they'll always be angels but means that "talking to them" still has relevance as you're speaking to values they already fundamentally subscribe to, lapses aside.

Little kids aren't usually naughty because they want to be; they have low impulse control and poor theory of mind. They need help to learn how to empathise with others, and not to be put in situations where there impulse control will be overwhelmed too easily.

I mean when I have an older child I may have a different view

Trust me, you will. I’ve got 45 years of parenthood behind me. We all start off full of idealism then real life kicks in.