AIBU to think presenting facts is pointless.

[OlympicProcrastinator]

This year has been an eye opener for sure. From conspiracy theories, anti vaccine, BLM, Trump, Brexit etc there has been a huge amount of discussion and argument. But I have begun to think that actually, discussion on line (yes I know I’m being hypocritical here) is largely pointless because facts mean relatively little in comparison to personal belief. People simply double down on their own arguments because being right is more important to them regardless of evidence or facts. So I looked a little more into this and it doesn’t even have anything to do with lack of intellect. In fact, the higher the IQ, the more able someone is to dig deep and defend their position. I have witnessed this first hand with academics.

Now I’m aware of it I’m going to try my hardest to open my own mind much more. But in the grand scheme of things, it appears pointless to argue, especially on line about any topic and a waste of all our time and energy AIBU?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds/amp

www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/factd-up-why-its-pointless-to-argue-based-on-the-facts.html/

I have to agree. Peraonal beliefs seems to trump all sense of logic and science, and the world is becoming more divided because of it. I'm not talking a difference of opinion here, I mean the clear distinction of fact vs belief and the latter always seems to take precedent. It is (and always has been) a dangerous thing, but as always people never learn.

I sympathise and mostly agree - but many people cite "facts" which are actually opinion.

I sympathise and mostly agree - but many people cite "facts" which are actually opinion.

Oh yes I absolutely agree with this. Often we see verifiable facts but the person reproducing them overlays it with their own opinion.

Example, ‘Capital punishment is legalised murder’

Seems like a fact but the statement is actually an opinion. Maybe a legitimate one, but an opinion nevertheless. Also people often write FACT at the end of an opinion. As if that somehow makes it so.

There's a quote:
You can't reason someone out of a position that they haven't reasoned them self into.

I think of that a lot, particularly regarding gender.

I would have to agree with you. I've not followed the link you posted but there have been numerous studies done on this. There was a tribe in colonial Africa (I can't remember when or where) but a young girl told them she'd heard a prophecy that stated that for the tribe to basically get all the good luck (harvest, freedom etc) they must slaughter all their cows and only once they'd suffered would they be rewarded (heavily paraphrasing). Anyway, most of them did and the date of reward came and went. Rather than thinking maybe it was wrong they simply blamed those people that didn't slaughter EVERY cow, and they also slaughtered goats etc. Then the date came and went again and it was blamed on the non-believers etc. Anyway. In the end I think they all starved to death or moved away.

There are quite a few similar ones involving doomsday prophecies etc.

Kinda fitting in 2020 isn't it?

Ah yes epythymy The Xhosa cattle massacre.

Perfect quote LondonPainter

Which begs the question, what is the point of debate anymore. Particularly online where there is no nuance, tone, expression etc. Is it all just a waste of our time?

Did anyone here ever feel strongly about something, had a discussion on here and changed their mind?

@OlympicProcrastinator

Ah yes epythymy The Xhosa cattle massacre.

Perfect quote LondonPainter

Which begs the question, what is the point of debate anymore. Particularly online where there is no nuance, tone, expression etc. Is it all just a waste of our time?

Did anyone here ever feel strongly about something, had a discussion on here and changed their mind?

Not in a 'light bulb moment', more over time, but yes MN discussions did lead me to changing my mind over a subject. Absolutely from fully on one side to the other. It's really the only time I've ever been really swayed by something, I'm embarrassed by my deep ignorance on the matter beforehand.

@OlympicProcrastinator

Ah yes epythymy The Xhosa cattle massacre.

Perfect quote LondonPainter

Which begs the question, what is the point of debate anymore. Particularly online where there is no nuance, tone, expression etc. Is it all just a waste of our time?

Did anyone here ever feel strongly about something, had a discussion on here and changed their mind?

Debate has died. No it’s online tribes all vigorously agreeing with each other and refusing to engage with non cult members.

@OlympicProcrastinator

Ah yes epythymy The Xhosa cattle massacre.

Perfect quote LondonPainter

Which begs the question, what is the point of debate anymore. Particularly online where there is no nuance, tone, expression etc. Is it all just a waste of our time?

Did anyone here ever feel strongly about something, had a discussion on here and changed their mind?

I have. Also helps me (sometimes) to see why people have the opinions they do.

I like the You Are Not So Smart podcast. It goes into a lot of detail on this sort of thing.

I'm increasingly feeling this way

Debate has died. No it’s online tribes all vigorously agreeing with each other and refusing to engage with non cult members.
That's true for some topics on here (Brexit,fireworks) but not all.

@toconclude your post just proves that the nuance of debate is becoming lost. You couldn't even go one sentence without using an insulting/dismissive term.

Yes, I agree

I was reading a very bizarre Facebook thread last night - about the opening times of a local Christmas tree farm. One poster kept insisting that it opened at X time. Several people including the actual owner of the Christmas tree farm said no, it opens at Y time.

The first poster kept insisting it was his opinion and he was entitled to it.

No, it’s not an opinion, you’re just plain wrong. It was odd, he just wouldn’t drop it.

The attitude of everyone is entitled to their opinion goes well beyond opinions these days. Are we all too proud to admit when we get something wrong?

Example, ‘Capital punishment is legalised murder’

Bad example. Murder is defined as "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another". Legalised means taking the unlawfulness away of the premeditated killing of one human by another. Ergo, calling capital punishment legalised murder is, literally speaking, a fact.
Capital punishment is wrong/right/whatever is an opinion, on the other hand.

Not in a 'light bulb moment', more over time, but yes MN discussions did lead me to changing my mind over a subject. Absolutely from fully on one side to the other. It's really the only time I've ever been really swayed by something, I'm embarrassed by my deep ignorance on the matter beforehand

So it was sort of viewing the discussion ‘at a distance’ that swayed you. That’s interesting and I can relate to that too.
Perhaps then discussions and debates are still worth having but from the position that it’s the spectators, those not directly involved who may be more willing to engage with factual information.

teateateateateamoretea

Well ‘muder’ in unto itself is a concept and a descriptor of something illegal. So by definition it cannot be used to describe something legal. And therefore, the idea that is is ‘legalised murder’ can only be factual if you fully accept Capital Punishment is, in fact, murder.

Slightly detailing here.

Derailing not detailing!

Well ‘muder’ in unto itself is a concept and a descriptor of something illegal. So by definition it cannot be used to describe something legal. And therefore, the idea that is is ‘legalised murder’ can only be factual if you fully accept Capital Punishment is, in fact, murder

No, that doesn't make sense at all. Capital punishment is by definition not murder (without a qualifier) as murder is specifically unlawful killing and CP is lawful. The qualifier legalised is what gives the meaning to CP is legalised murder as it is saying that it removes the definition of unlawful vis a vis the descriptor of murder. So, CP is legalised murder, is, on a purely descriptive level, a fact.

No, that doesn't make sense at all

Probably because the last line of my post should have read, ‘if you accept that murder as a concept is factual and it’s meaning can be altered’

But I have a feeling that we won’t agree with each other if we argued all day

I do take your point however.

I’ve reported the slur.

This is great - can we talk about Brexit ;-)

@Springersrock

Yes, I agree

I was reading a very bizarre Facebook thread last night - about the opening times of a local Christmas tree farm. One poster kept insisting that it opened at X time. Several people including the actual owner of the Christmas tree farm said no, it opens at Y time.

The first poster kept insisting it was his opinion and he was entitled to it.

No, it’s not an opinion, you’re just plain wrong. It was odd, he just wouldn’t drop it.

They would have been ear marked as an idiot by whoever read that post.