AIBU to think presenting facts is pointless.

[OlympicProcrastinator]

This year has been an eye opener for sure. From conspiracy theories, anti vaccine, BLM, Trump, Brexit etc there has been a huge amount of discussion and argument. But I have begun to think that actually, discussion on line (yes I know I’m being hypocritical here) is largely pointless because facts mean relatively little in comparison to personal belief. People simply double down on their own arguments because being right is more important to them regardless of evidence or facts. So I looked a little more into this and it doesn’t even have anything to do with lack of intellect. In fact, the higher the IQ, the more able someone is to dig deep and defend their position. I have witnessed this first hand with academics.

Now I’m aware of it I’m going to try my hardest to open my own mind much more. But in the grand scheme of things, it appears pointless to argue, especially on line about any topic and a waste of all our time and energy AIBU?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds/amp

www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/factd-up-why-its-pointless-to-argue-based-on-the-facts.html/

Well dynamoKev my thread was partially inspired by Brexit. I think that particular debate is too toxic for lots of people to engage with now.

@OlympicProcrastinator

Ah yes epythymy The Xhosa cattle massacre.

Perfect quote LondonPainter

Which begs the question, what is the point of debate anymore. Particularly online where there is no nuance, tone, expression etc. Is it all just a waste of our time?

Did anyone here ever feel strongly about something, had a discussion on here and changed their mind?

I don't think I have fully changed from one side to another but I have definitely been given food for thought in certain areas or else had my opinions reinforced, such as a few issues for which I have been a bit ambivalent/on the fence where I've formed a stronger opinion for one side or the other.

I think the issue is that for a lot of it, it's people who are firmly entrenched shouting at one another. Those that are a bit ambivalent/on the fence are usually only reading. I don't think I've ever changed anybodies mind. I had one exchange with someone who said I was talking rubbish so I provided her with several peer reviewed studies which backed up what I'd said. She didn't reply to me again but I saw her continuing to spout her (proven incorrect) opinion on other boards.

However, if one lurker reads what I say and it helps/informs, I'm happy with that. You can't "win over" those whose minds are made up, but there are millions of minds not yet made up. Those are the minds you're aiming for.

@DynamoKev

This is great - can we talk about Brexit ;-)

I'm very happy to talk about Brexit! Im a Remainer, but I'm bloody fed up of anyone who voted for it being described as stupid and uneducated. The way some people talk about 'the working class', 'poor people not knowing what's best for them' , 'talking about immigration makes your racist', 'something something Northerners' - it's of little surprise people outside of London didn't feel listened to and made a protest vote. Exactly the same can be said about Labour losing so many voters, you cant talk to/about people like theyre stupid and don't know whats best for themselves then be shocked they don't want to vote for you .

A good exame of this is any discussion about the NHS and the costs associated with it. People go on about foreign tourism, esthetic procedure and the waste of managers as causes to constant increase in costs.

Then you point out that the biggest cost to the nhs is diabetes, at a significant margin, and that the main cause of diabetes is obesity, all evidenced and non questionable, and this is completely ignored and the discussion goes back blaming what is nowhere a valid reason to blame.

People like to point the finger at others, as far away from them as possible. When you point evidence at them, their loved ones, or them in the future, they don't like it and just ignore it.

@BrumBoo absolutely! Almost every debate now results in one side being labelled as "stupid" and therefore not worthy of being listened to. It essentially shuts down the debate because rather than putting forward facts and ideas, the "clever" side simply shouts "stupid" at the other side. Which, as far as I know, has never won anybody over!

@dontdisturbmenow

A good exame of this is any discussion about the NHS and the costs associated with it. People go on about foreign tourism, esthetic procedure and the waste of managers as causes to constant increase in costs.

Then you point out that the biggest cost to the nhs is diabetes, at a significant margin, and that the main cause of diabetes is obesity, all evidenced and non questionable, and this is completely ignored and the discussion goes back blaming what is nowhere a valid reason to blame.

People like to point the finger at others, as far away from them as possible. When you point evidence at them, their loved ones, or them in the future, they don't like it and just ignore it.

Similar is those that blame "benefits scroungers" and the like for the national debt when in reality its multimillionaire firms not paying taxes 🙂

I've read a bit about this and there were two things that stood out:

1. Being 'right' wasn't a key motivator for those who dig their heels in. The major motivator leading to these tribal beliefs is loneliness or lacking a sense of belonging. Criticism of their beliefs is a criticism of their group, their tribe, their safety.
2. Online arguments and facts convince absolutely nobody, but giving people face to face emotional stories of your experiences can lead to them changing their minds very quickly.

[quote epythymy]@BrumBoo absolutely! Almost every debate now results in one side being labelled as "stupid" and therefore not worthy of being listened to. It essentially shuts down the debate because rather than putting forward facts and ideas, the "clever" side simply shouts "stupid" at the other side. Which, as far as I know, has never won anybody over! [/quote]
Yep - in the case of Brexit there's about a thread a week along the lines of "tell me one good thing about brexit" with unsaid subtext "so we can all pile in and tell you're wrong (stupid and racist)

Similar is those that blame "benefits scroungers" and the like for the national debt when in reality its multimillionaire firms not paying taxes
Indeed

In the past, newspaper editors decided which letters to publish.

Everyone was free to speak

not everyone was free to be widely heard

Nowadays with online forums and reader comments on news stories and blogs
everybody can be heard

and its not a nice noise

TBH I have found discussions on this site and others
that addition of more facts to my head
meant I changed my mind significantly
which has been interesting

There's no such thing as a fact. "Facts" are always opinions, often other people's.

Examples of facts actually being opinions:
"It's cold today" - my perception is that I am cold, it's my opinion, someone who's just spent six months in Antarctica might disagree.

"I've turned the central heating on to warm things up" - well, I think I did, based on my memory and my understanding of how the central heating controls work. But is there any actual hard evidence to back me up? Can I prove it? No.

"Rape jokes are never funny" - well unless I've sat down and thought up every possible rape joke that's not a fact. (I haven't obviously, and I couldn't because it would be an infinite task.)

"Ghosts/Daleks/UFOs don't exist" - just because there is no evidence doesn't mean they don't exist. On some level they must exist, because people can imagine them. But the lack of proof is meaningless, lack of proof doesn't prove anything in itself because you can't prove proof will never be found. (If you commit murder and nobody can prove it, you're still a murderer, and might eventually be caught.)

Does oxygen exist? Apparently it's a "fact" we all breathe it in and need it to survive. But I've never seen any. I can't taste it. Other people have presented evidence that it exists, but I haven't done any personal research into the matter so can only go on what other people think. Therefore if I claim "oxygen exists" it's an opinion - scientists have told me it does, and I believed them.

You can present "facts" and "evidence" and "proof" all you like, but you are doing so because you believe them to be true. By definition if you are basing their veracity on belief, they are not facts.

Think of Auschwitz, the extermination camp in Nazi Poland. For many years it was a "fact" that 4 million people died there. It is now a "fact" the figure was more like 1.1 million, possibly a few hundred thousand higher. If the latter is a fact, the former wasn't, and never was. But that didn't stop it being reported in encylopedias, history books, official statistics - the very sort of places we get our "facts" from.

There's no such thing as a fact

The air temperature outside my back door is 8.5 degrees C is a fact

The earth is 93 million miles from the sun is a fact

We need oxygen to stay alive is a fact

Birth and death are facts

@contrmary

There's no such thing as a fact. "Facts" are always opinions, often other people's.

Examples of facts actually being opinions:
"It's cold today" - my perception is that I am cold, it's my opinion, someone who's just spent six months in Antarctica might disagree.

"I've turned the central heating on to warm things up" - well, I think I did, based on my memory and my understanding of how the central heating controls work. But is there any actual hard evidence to back me up? Can I prove it? No.

"Rape jokes are never funny" - well unless I've sat down and thought up every possible rape joke that's not a fact. (I haven't obviously, and I couldn't because it would be an infinite task.)

"Ghosts/Daleks/UFOs don't exist" - just because there is no evidence doesn't mean they don't exist. On some level they must exist, because people can imagine them. But the lack of proof is meaningless, lack of proof doesn't prove anything in itself because you can't prove proof will never be found. (If you commit murder and nobody can prove it, you're still a murderer, and might eventually be caught.)

Does oxygen exist? Apparently it's a "fact" we all breathe it in and need it to survive. But I've never seen any. I can't taste it. Other people have presented evidence that it exists, but I haven't done any personal research into the matter so can only go on what other people think. Therefore if I claim "oxygen exists" it's an opinion - scientists have told me it does, and I believed them.

You can present "facts" and "evidence" and "proof" all you like, but you are doing so because you believe them to be true. By definition if you are basing their veracity on belief, they are not facts.

Think of Auschwitz, the extermination camp in Nazi Poland. For many years it was a "fact" that 4 million people died there. It is now a "fact" the figure was more like 1.1 million, possibly a few hundred thousand higher. If the latter is a fact, the former wasn't, and never was. But that didn't stop it being reported in encylopedias, history books, official statistics - the very sort of places we get our "facts" from.

Good points. Some scientific and medical "facts" from 200 years ago turned out to be arse.

There's no such thing as a fact. "Facts" are always opinions, often other people's.Examples of facts actually being opinions:"It's cold today" - my perception is that I am cold, it's my opinion, someone who's just spent six months in Antarctica might disagree

Wrong. Lots of opinion are presented as facts, true. But facts still exist. 2+2 is a fact, not an opinion. The burj khalifa is the highest building in the world is a fact, not an opinion.

Does oxygen exist? Apparently it's a "fact" we all breathe it in and need it to survive. But I've never seen any. I can't taste it. Other people have presented evidence that it exists, but I haven't done any personal research into the matter so can only go on what other people think. Therefore if I claim "oxygen exists" it's an opinion - scientists have told me it does, and I believed them.

No, the existence of oxygen is not an opinion.

You can present "facts" and "evidence" and "proof" all you like, but you are doing so because you believe them to be true. By definition if you are basing their veracity on belief, they are not facts

Absolute bollocks. You don't need to believe in facts, they are whether you believe it or not. I can scarcely believe BoJo is the PM of an actual country, but that's a fact whether I believe it or not. He still is.

You seem terribly confused about what a fact actually is. The notion that there are no facts, only opinions is moronic in the extreme. Very ontrend for 2020 though.

@OlympicProcrastinator

Not in a 'light bulb moment', more over time, but yes MN discussions did lead me to changing my mind over a subject. Absolutely from fully on one side to the other. It's really the only time I've ever been really swayed by something, I'm embarrassed by my deep ignorance on the matter beforehand

So it was sort of viewing the discussion ‘at a distance’ that swayed you. That’s interesting and I can relate to that too.
Perhaps then discussions and debates are still worth having but from the position that it’s the spectators, those not directly involved who may be more willing to engage with factual information.

It was the same for me, I was exposed on here to viewpoints I had never come across IRL and I slowly changed my point of view

I think it depends on how attached someone is to a concept. There are subjects that I suppose that I could easily be swayed on but others in which I am wedded to my opinion regardless.

Then you point out that the biggest cost to the nhs is diabetes, at a significant margin, and that the main cause of diabetes is obesity, all evidenced and non questionable, and this is completely ignored and the discussion goes back blaming what is nowhere a valid reason to blame.

Accordingly to recent data the NHS spend on diabetes is 5 billion versus 12.2 billion in mental health for the same period.

The notion that there are no facts, only opinions is moronic in the extreme. Very ontrend for 2020 though.
As is calling opinions "moronic"

Agree. Sick of being called racist, sexist, right wing, left wing, ageist, stupid, thick, ignorant a boomer a snowflake an apologist a "denier"... and many other things when all I have tried to do is clarify the facts, present an alternative view or challenge a statement!!

Debate is dead. I have, however, changed my view on certain things from MN. I engage with people from very different walks of life from my own and learn from the experiences of people I would otherwise never get to talk to. But debate - no - that is impossible, on line or otherwise.

As is calling opinions "moronic"

I didn't. What I said was the notion that there are no facts only opinions is moronic. And that's a fact!

And that's another point...talking to people who neither read or understood a point properly, but weigh in anyway, as if their hot take on something they haven't even listened to is in any way wanted!

I have definitely changed my mind about things based on what I've read but I don't have the same tribal loyalty some people do, and I'm quite happy to say "I don't really know enough about that to have an opinion" so I'm usually open to being persuaded by facts and logic.

I do find it strange when people think there's only one right opinion to have though, as though you can't look at facts and come to a different conclusion based on your personal experiences and priorities. It makes me wonder if people only associate with people who think the same way they do in real life or if they're just less combative offline.

@teateateateateamoretea

And that's another point...talking to people who neither read or understood a point properly, but weigh in anyway, as if their hot take on something they haven't even listened to is in any way wanted!

OK, the thread Police have arrived, again.

@teateateateateamoretea

As is calling opinions "moronic"

I didn't. What I said was the notion that there are no facts only opinions is moronic. And that's a fact!

Yes, ok then, extremely moronic - always a helpful contribution.

OK, the thread Police have arrived, again

You'd miss the point if it was actually rubbed in your face, wouldn't you?

It's literally the topic of the thread.