AIBU to be stuck on the fence re BAME shortlists

[HubertHerbert]

I thought it sounded like a great idea. And then when I see how unpopular it appears and how reasonable some of the criticisms are...

Are there any better ideas to make parliaments/political parties more representative?

Poll - yes - BAME shortlists are a good idea

No - they're not

but thats not how you get selected to beckme an MP.The days of joining your local party etc or becoming a local counsellor are gone.Nowadays its about joining a hedge fund, becoming an adviser and then getting your mate from school to support you in safe seat. after which ones career can be resumed.

Career politicians and men taking time out to do a stint as an MP is where it's at. Is that whats best for the UK?

plussize

Then join (or form) a more democratic political party. This is the process. Yes, it’s not ideal. I am still not comfortable with fixing it so that certain people can’t stand.

As am I and I hate the term, so even amongst so-called BAME people 'we' have differing opinions on the term - demonstrating once again that we are not a homogeneous mass!

That's interesting. I'm Asian and I wonder if we Asians have benefitted more from BAME than black people?

but thats not how you get selected to beckme an MP.The days of joining your local party etc or becoming a local counsellor are gone.Nowadays its about joining a hedge fund, becoming an adviser and then getting your mate from school to support you in safe seat. after which ones career can be resumed.

God this is so true. [grin[

er,

And you can stand as an independent. Anyone can do so. More people should.

@flaviaritt ...dont be daft...its already fixed that the whole point and way before people's names get on the ballot paper.thats the whole point.

you are just ok with the fix...but some people are not.

but as i said in an earlier point even that debate is done. The one we should really be talking about is most jobs/decision making being done by the machine with their own biases and not a human.

you are just ok with the fix...but some people are not.

I’m not ‘okay’ with it. I’m against it. I’m just against this new fix as well.

@tallduckandhandsome

As am I and I hate the term, so even amongst so-called BAME people 'we' have differing opinions on the term - demonstrating once again that we are not a homogeneous mass!

That's interesting. I'm Asian and I wonder if we Asians have benefitted more from BAME than black people?

I'm half Asian but grew up in a typically white Home Counties setting - my mother cut ties with her country of origin for various reasons, so although I have olive skin and people tend to think I am Southern European, officially I am BAME but I don't have any ties of experience of the country/culture my mother left behind, and have had quite a privileged upbringing so I would actually feel quite fraudulent being put forward as part of a BAME initiative.

@flaviaritt any system is a fix...thats literally what it means. the question is whether you are more or less ok with one particular system over another

plussize

I’m not okay with a system that systematically excludes any particular group of candidates.

Ultimately, I wonder if we might need to provide govt funding for independent candidates and their campaigns, with an independent panel to assess merit.

Ultimately, I wonder if we might need to provide govt funding for independent candidates and their campaigns, with an independent panel to assess merit.

er. ok.

In an ideal world we'd all get jobs on merit and I totally understand those who want jobs etc offered to the best person for the job. However, this is often voiced as if this has always been the case and that it's currently how people are employed.

It's common knowledge that people aren't employed entirely on merit because the 'best' person for the job is always based on the biases of the interviewer. If these people are white, male and middle class then the 'best' will resemble something very similar. If the panel is made up of men and women from all walks of life then the 'best' suddenly changes.

Research has shown that companies are more successful the more diverse they are so if the sole objective of a company is success then the 'best' person suddenly transcends individual ideas of merit but the makeup of its resource. Ultimately we're not talking about a white male who is head and shoulders better than a BAME male but often similarly qualified people where being better is subjective.

I have no issues with positive discrimination to create a balance that currently doesn't exist. You're not getting a leg up if you started the race 5 minutes later in the first place.

Timshortforthalia

Why not?

If it was a level playing field and the best got jobs I'd say not necessary, but when people making decisions are usually male/white/middle class or a combination of the 3 then I'd say there needs to be better representation quickly and shortlists are a good way. I don't really know how it can be argued against but then I'm a mixed race, female mother so know how often my CV has been chucked to the bottom of the pile. I'm always seeing useless men be promoted.

@flaviaritt

I think people sometimes forget that only about 12-13% of people in the UK are not white British. An all-white shortlist in Harlesden would shock me. An all-white list in Bristol wouldn’t.

Sometimes I think that people (especially those living in London) tend to forget this.

These are the figures from the 2011 Census:-

Ethnicity............London..........Rest of UK (excl. London)
White British.......44.9%...............87.1%
White Other.........14.9%.................3.9%
Mixed....................5.0%..................1.6%
South Asian........12.1%..................3.9%
Asian Other...........6.4%..................1.4%
Black....................13.3%.................1.5%
Arab.......................1.3%..................0.3%
Other......................2.1%..................0.3%

FWIW I have in the past removed one of my (ethnic-sounding) names from a job application form and landed an interview so whilst positive action isn't the panacea it can go some way to redressing imbalance.

nickymanchester

I believe London has the second or third largest population in the world of people born in another country. That’s emphatically not a problem for me, but it definitely skews the debate.

No. Women only and BAME only shortlists do fuck all to improve the chances of those from poorer backgrounds which is the real issue that causes many of those from BAME backgrounds to get left behind and simply further increases opportunity for the most privileged people from such backgrounds. There is nothing worse than a group of privately educated Oxbridge graduates boasting about how diverse they are because they happen to have women and people of colour in their group.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/all-woman-labour-shortlist-announced-ashton-under-lyne-7578406

Angela Rayner was selected from an all woman short list to run in a safe Labour seat. She left school at 16, pregnant and with no qualifications.

Angela Rayner was selected from an all woman short list to run in a safe Labour seat. She left school at 16, pregnant and with no qualifications.

Do you think this is an advert for all-women shortlists?

I think it’s in response to this

There is nothing worse than a group of privately educated Oxbridge graduates boasting about how diverse they are because they happen to have women and people of colour in their group.

Not everything is about you

Not everything is about you wink

True. I actually hate it when people have a go at Rayner because she got pregnant at 16 - so what? But also, I hate it when people imply her lack of qualifications and her pregnancy are actual badges of honour. They’re neither. If she’s smart (and I suspect she is) she will be able to do that job.

@Orangeboots

We need a parliament that represents the people. Of course we need stronger representation from minorities and that include working class white people as well as Bame, Women and - we all need a diverse voice but they need to be an excellent candidate too. We currently have an ethnic minority MP and he is absolutely useless as a local MP - he is only interested in his career and promotion within the party and is absolutely loyal to all they do (badly). And when he receives criticism from his constituents he writes articles in the Daily Mail about how racist we all are because we think he's crap and doesn't represent his constituents.

Not the one who represents Tottenham by any chance?

What other 'characteristics' are unrepresented though?

You can ask for all female shortlists - and get mainly white women from private schools and an upper middle class background.

So why not have an all comprehensive school shortlist?
A working class shortlist?
An LGBT shortlist?

I totally get under representation, discrimination, appointing people who 'look' like you - and at the same time, there are many groups who do face discrimination and are under represented - so how do you ensure fairness and ensure everyone from a range of groups has a chance?