AIBU to be stuck on the fence re BAME shortlists

[HubertHerbert]

I thought it sounded like a great idea. And then when I see how unpopular it appears and how reasonable some of the criticisms are...

Are there any better ideas to make parliaments/political parties more representative?

Poll - yes - BAME shortlists are a good idea

No - they're not

It's not always the truth, if in practice it means the best white people get the jobs.

But that’s not true. 10% of UK MPs aren’t white, serving a population in which 12-13% of people aren’t white.

’Yes, recruit on merit would be best. It's been shown over and over again that that just does not happen’

This. Even with the use of all women shortlists only 34% of MPs are women. That’s 51% of Labour MPs (Labour use all women short lists) but only 24% of Conservative MPs (Conservatives don’t use all women short lists) Labour recognised that the existing process produced a biased result so they did something about it.

But that’s not true. 10% of UK MPs aren’t white, serving a population in which 12-13% of people aren’t white.

According to census data, 19.5% of the population comes from an ethnic minority.

Even with the use of all women shortlists only 34% of MPs are women. That’s 51% of Labour MPs (Labour use all women short lists) but only 24% of Conservative MPs

Which means women (at least some of them) are voting for men. Well, I often vote for men as well. I just want to vote for the person I like best, and it would really annoy me to be told I couldn’t because he was a man.

According to census data, 19.5% of the population comes from an ethnic minority.

But that includes (I assume) white minorities? The demographic data I’ve looked at says 12%. I’m happy to be wrong. I still don’t believe in rigged shortlists.

But women are no different to men in having biases

And those biases are often in favour of men

What does BAME even mean though? Is it someone like Rishi Sunak who is from an incredibly privileged background? Is it a Somali teenager living in a east end high rise? Is it a second generation Chinese immigrant studying medicine? Is it a Bengali housewife who has never worked since arriving in the U.K.? Is it someone mixed race - and if so are they half mixed race or a quarter?

The term BAME is hugely problematic and people may as well just go back to using the (offensive) term 'coloured' as there is no difference in the meaning. So for that reason I think 'BAME shortlists' are not a good thing as they perpetuate the fallacy that there is a homogeneous group of BAME people.

Here is the data, says 19.5% of population are EM and 8% of MPs are BAME.

news.sky.com/story/commons-people-how-diverse-are-mps-and-do-they-reflect-the-uk-11829868

And those biases are often in favour of men

True. But it’s our democratic right (IMO) to vote for whatever candidates we like, for whatever reasons we like. I really am not comfortable with certain people being excluded in case they win.

No, it means that not enough women are being selected to stand as Conservative MPs by the constituency parties in safe or winnable seats. That’s where the bias lies. The voters are voting for women when they’re given the opportunity to.

tallduckandhandsome

I looked at other data, but thanks. Either way, I’m not okay with it.

The term BAME is hugely problematic and people may as well just go back to using the (offensive) term 'coloured' as there is no difference in the meaning. So for that reason I think 'BAME shortlists' are not a good thing as they perpetuate the fallacy that there is a homogeneous group of BAME people.

I'm BAME and I'd rather there was an (inoffensive) term for me rather than none at all. BAME, for its problems, does let us BAME people come together in the workplace at least.

No, it means that not enough women are being selected to stand as Conservative MPs by the constituency parties in safe or winnable seats.

But again, every adult citizen has the ability to join their local party (whichever they like) and be involved in selection. Don’t they?

Although bame is not an homogeneous group, every one of that group will be disadvantaged compared to their white equivalent

So if they are poor and female they will be disadvantaged compared to white poor females, slightly less likely to get a job, slightly more likely to be dismissed by a doctor

If they are rich and privately educated, they will still find it harder, have to be better, than the white child with the same background

Whilst people huff and puff about the injustice of such mechanisms, they allow the bigger injustice to continue

@flaviaritt

No, it means that not enough women are being selected to stand as Conservative MPs by the constituency parties in safe or winnable seats.

But again, every adult citizen has the ability to join their local party (whichever they like) and be involved in selection. Don’t they?

And your point is? If all those people have biases, how does that overcome the bias ?

No, it means that not enough women are being selected to stand as Conservative MPs by the constituency parties in safe or winnable seats. That’s where the bias lies. The voters are voting for women when they’re given the opportunity to.

Agreed. Also, 54% of the Tory rank-and-file believe that Islam is “generally a threat to the British way of life”. There's no way Muslims have a level playing field in that environment.

Whilst people huff and puff about the injustice of such mechanisms, they allow the bigger injustice to continue

Very true.

And your point is?
If all those people have biases, how does that overcome the bias ?

It doesn’t. They’re entitled to vote based on their biases. But if everyone has the right to a say, and they either have that say or voluntarily relinquish the chance to have it, I don’t see the issue. People can select the political candidates they prefer. It’s the backbone of democracy.

Also, 54% of the Tory rank-and-file believe that Islam is “generally a threat to the British way of life”. There's no way Muslims have a level playing field in that environment.

Of course not. But if they join a political party where people are more likely to be racist than not, do they truly have grounds for complaint? Nobody is forcing them to be Tories.

@flaviaritt but that means Muslims are barely represented in one of the UK's largest parties. That's not the answer.

The candidates are selected by a handful of people. Does that mean that the thousands of people in the constituency should never have the chance to vote for a woman?

In 1992 9.2% of MPs were women

From the 1997 general election Labour introduced all women shortlists

In 2019 33.8% of MPs were women

but that means Muslims are barely represented in one of the UK's largest parties. That's not the answer.

Why not? I don’t get this idea that a political party needs to look ‘diverse’. Surely what it needs to do is represent its members in a legal democratic fashion? If you have to only stand Muslim candidates to make that happen, you are disenfranchising your own members. That can’t be right.

The candidates are selected by a handful of people. Does that mean that the thousands of people in the constituency should never have the chance to vote for a woman?

No. They should join the political party they feel inclined to support, and take up their chance to help select candidates. It’s democracy.

@tallduckandhandsome

The term BAME is hugely problematic and people may as well just go back to using the (offensive) term 'coloured' as there is no difference in the meaning. So for that reason I think 'BAME shortlists' are not a good thing as they perpetuate the fallacy that there is a homogeneous group of BAME people.

I'm BAME and I'd rather there was an (inoffensive) term for me rather than none at all. BAME, for its problems, does let us BAME people come together in the workplace at least.

As am I and I hate the term, so even amongst so-called BAME people 'we' have differing opinions on the term - demonstrating once again that we are not a homogeneous mass!

If you want a different result you need a different system because the current one is flawed. A system which resulted in fewer than 1 in 10 elected MPs being women was not a fair one.