To ask any one of Pakistani descent (Urdu speakers) to please talk about this frankly with me?

[Mebeline]

hi there
I am genuinely trying to understand a conversation i just had with a woman which was loosely related to my professional role. Please don't flame me, I am trying to be actively non-racist after BLM and I am just trying to learn more about cultural norms and values that differ to my own.

She explained to me that her son has a genetic disorder due to 'cousin marriage' in her words, which means that the whole family have weak bones. she went on to tell me that she refused genetic testing , because she was scared about how her husband would react, as she was newly married and her son was young. so she refused genetic testing and so did her husband. I am not sure if relevant, but she has gone on to have another child and is pregnant with a third. She did not tell me if her second child had similar problems as her first.

i do not understand why she would refuse to have genetic testing, and i didn't want to ask further as what she had brought up is not relevant to my professional role, and i did not want to go outside of the boundaries of why she was speaking to me and encourage over disclosure, which she may have later regretted.

Was she afraid that her husband would leave her if her 'genetic material' wasn't good enough?

Surely this is misogynistic abuse? i do not want to collude with this and very much feel as a feminist woman that it is not fair that a woman of colour is experiencing this level of oppression.

Please, to allow this thread to run, can posters avoid racist stereotyping? I am very genuinely asking anyone of Pakistani descent what is going on here and if there is anything i can do to better understand this woman's circumstances and reasons for her actions, and then if there is anything i can do to help her.

TIA

Just found it after a quick Google:

"The current monarch is a direct descendant of Queen Victoria on her father’s side, while Philip is related to Queen Victoria on his mother’s side.
They are also second cousins once removed by descent from Christian IX of Denmark and Louise of Hesse-Kassel."

I just looked up the Dickie character, he was a great-grandson of Victoria's so second cousin once removed of the Queen's (and must be of Philip's too) and also Philip's uncle.

@Mebeline I seem to have picked up on the worst case scenarios, which won’t apply in every case and hopefully in none at all. There are so many contingencies and possibilities and no one single experience. My experiences listed are from London families in the 2000s and some now, with origins in rural areas (so not actually dominantly Urdu speaking) as those that speak Urdu are a small but very dominant minority, sometimes despised by rest of the country. Urdu has a long history as was imposed on the rest of the country, it has a long moghul and colonial history as to why it ended up being a dominant language spoken only by a minority. If your patient is from an Urdu speaking background, she is from a more privileged, most likely middle-class background, which makes it more surprising that she would be suppressed by antiquated cultural norms. Then we are left with economic and residence factors. And of course personal choice but you stated you were worried about her.
@Genevieva your anthropological examples are really interesting. I might have to read up on those. Wouldn’t the world be a little better if more societies were equal? I remember all those Margaret Mead studies where different tribes were compared, and the Matriarchal ones/more equal ones were happier but also less good at fighting, so I assume ( but don’t remember it from the texts) given a drive for resources eventually the mean and brutal ones would take over.

The lady knows the issue, cousin marriage.
What difference is the test going to make, can she divorce him, probably not. If he dumps her she's damaged goods nobody would want.

But the issue is multiple generations being interrelated.
I know a lady and DSis who are married to two brothers, so their children are first cousins, Normally you'd expect first cousins to have a set of shared GPs and two other GPs
However the sisters married brothers, the cousins share both sets of GPs. So genetically they are closer than normal first cousins. Then throw in the previous generation also being inter-related.

If cousin marriage wasn't legally recognised then none of the financial benefits that accrue could be counted on, DynamoKev, and given that the motivation for such marriages is financial it would disincentivise them. If you get caught fiddling inheritance tax or suchlike it can get tricky.

There is a creeping racism here - unintentionally maybe
As for not wanting to know that can be human or protective of her husband's or his families feelings.
Cousin marriage is - even in Pakistan - especially with educated people - is declining. There is also cultural differences in attitudes about roles in marriage, female education, birth control abortion et al in different areas (rural v urban for one) & traditions & families & tribal aspects or different interpretations on religious ideas.
Like here you can live in the same street/village all your life but it doesn't mean you behave or think the same way.
I am not saying that common ideas in the community do not exist or that cousin marriage is exceptional unwise. It is, but, it is often down as a way of protecting the young woman from marrying a stranger who might treat her badly. So understanding why is the first step to trying to help people understand how unwise it is & halt it. Judging people is likely is drive a wedge.

Speaking of someone from the same culture as her I have literally no idea. Some people don't want to believe that their kids can have genetic conditions and by marrying so closely it is their 'fault'.

Some people will refuse generic resting because they won't abort anyway.

Some people don't understand the concept of genetic testing and think it is all down to God's will. Who knows what her reasoning is? I would ask her. If I was in her position I wouldn't keep having kids. You have to remember that not everyone from the same culture will behave in the same way.

Cousin marriage is a controversial topic amongst British adians, I baulked at the thought as I saw my cousins weekly. Some of my cousins however have married their cousins who lived in Pakistan, to them it is the same as marrying a random person because they didn't grow up with them. Each to their own, it wasn't what I chose, nor would I want my kids to do so.

*asians

The Queen and Duke of Edinburgh are second cousins

Princess Eugenie and her DH are also related, I think.

"I remember all those Margaret Mead studies "

I thought her work had been discredit to an extent?

Queen Victoria is both Prince Philip's and Queen Elizabeth's great-great grandmother - so I believe that makes them third cousins, not second.

Aren't they 2nd cousins and 3rd cousins because of shared ancestors?

Queen Victoria married her cousin and then had children and grand children who married into just about every royal house in Europe.

Another one completely confused by why the appeal was made to Urdu speakers; I presumed the OP was having translation difficulties. Weird.

I think people have badly misconstrued @Cheeseandwin5, btw. She's expressing disbelief at OP's statement that she has to try and be anti-racist after BLM. Because, y'know, it shouldn't be hard to not be racist, and you probably shouldn't have been racist before that movement, either 😒 Probably not what she meant, but it was poorly expressed.

Tbh, OP, I think you're obviously well-meaning, but you're coming across a bit White-Saviour-Earnest-First-Year-Social-Work-Student. You can lead this woman to the idea and import of genetic testing, but you can't make her swallow it. I suspect other posters are right and that it's either seen as akin to paternity testing, or an attack on the practice of first cousin marriage. Either way, you're unlikely to make much headway. She might be very unhappy in her marriage, as many White British woman are, or could be happy as Larry. Who knows? Not us. You'd probably have a better idea.

FWIW, and having acted years ago for a Turkish couple who were first cousins, and whose children were globally developmentally delayed, I think first cousin marriages should be discouraged. And there are signs that it's on the wane. Making it illegal would look at though you were targeting one ethnicity, which would be the first stumbling block. In terms of enforcement - well, discovery of bigamy, for example, renders a marriage void. If you have to confirm that you aren't first cousins and that's a lie, then your marriage would be void. Not especially complicated. It'd be a lot harder to stop unmarried first cousins having children, which would be the primary purpose of the legislation, though, so it seems a bit pointless.

Tough issue. Interestingly, I vaguely know a girl married to her (Australian) first cousin whom she met for the first time while travelling. She desperately conceals the fact that they're first cousins. Don't know if they've had children.

Hello I am from the same culture, albeit born and bred in th UK. It would be disrespectful as she's accusing the family of having an inherited disease which is like someone else said, an accusatory abusive slur. I cant explain it but it's like a cultural thing.
Also as a new bride she would have felt very worried to suggest socha thing as 'that's not what a new bride does' that would be deemed as the new bride is troublesome.

It's hard to explain. Please be aware I do no agree with cousins being married and as part of our faith as muslims which majority Pakistanis are, we are warned against it. Marrying cousins and in the family was pretty much a cultural thing. I'm not sure honestly why it is preferred. Though now it is less common amongst many Pakistani. A small proportion of them do practice it.
There is an extremely high incidence of mental health, and other illness amongst populations that do marry cousins.

Anyway. That's why. Uts like a slap in the face. For example when you go to another Pakistani family or arab family home, you dont ask for a cup of tea. The hosts dont ask you, they just make it. Its daft just a cultural thing. But it's weird as well o can imagine this girl being afraid of requesting such a thing.

@mumwon

There is a creeping racism here - unintentionally maybe As for not wanting to know that can be human or protective of her husband's or his families feelings. Cousin marriage is - even in Pakistan - especially with educated people - is declining. There is also cultural differences in attitudes about roles in marriage, female education, birth control abortion et al in different areas (rural v urban for one) & traditions & families & tribal aspects or different interpretations on religious ideas. Like here you can live in the same street/village all your life but it doesn't mean you behave or think the same way. I am not saying that common ideas in the community do not exist or that cousin marriage is exceptional unwise. It is, but, it is often down as a way of protecting the young woman from marrying a stranger who might treat her badly. So understanding why is the first step to trying to help people understand how unwise it is & halt it. Judging people is likely is drive a wedge.

No I'm pakistani and I dont really find it bordering on racist..I think OP has come across something that I interested/ confused/ intrigued her. I understand why you may think. I did too when I first read it. By urdu speaking I think she wanted someone with a similar background so they could explain. I think with the comment about BLM she has learnt that some questions that are asked and statements that are made were never made with the intent of being racist but were. Now people are more careful about how their lack of knowledge can come across so she is trying to be cautious. That's what I have understood from her post But in the end....whatever the reason. every culture religion race is different. That's what make the world beautiful and interesting. Sometimes cultures can have quirks. Every culture has a daft little quirk and this may be one quirk.

I dont mind if people are genuinly asking questions to understand, in a non derogatory way.

"Aren't they 2nd cousins and 3rd cousins because of shared ancestors?"

yes, I posted that. Probably more complicated than that even as royals keep interbreeding.

As cousins married cousins. Elizabeth and Philip have more ancestors than just Victoria in common. For example, they are both descended from Christian IX of Denmark and are second cousins once removed.

Incidentally, Victoria married her first cousin Albert.

@MrsMichaelPalin

The Queen and Duke of Edinburgh are second cousins.

Just saying...

It's a lot more rare to see societies with second cousin marriages and beyond as socially taboo, compared to first cousin marriages.

Genetic testing is a really complex thing psychologically, irrespective of cultural issues. As an educated, curious person who prefers to tackle problems head on, I feel that I would want to arm myself with the greatest possible amount of information in order to make any necessary decisions, and as such I struggle to understand why anyone eligible for genetic testing wouldn't want it.

It depends on your circumstances, I agree with testing if you don’t have children but it’s much more complicated if you have kids. I have a child with a genetic condition and I have refused a test. But, I chose not to have more children and I just didn’t need to add more guilt to the guilt I already had. I would encourage my children and their partners to have tests before they had children but would not advise this without serious counselling and the option to use ivf if necessary. It’s a difficult process to go through.

I am from a different minority background, of which some people do engage in genetic testing. Many don't, myself included, it wasn't offered and I'm unsure of how one would even initiate the process, is it only offered if deemed at risk? As many previous posters have said, there are a multitude of reasons why anyone would refuse this in addition to her own cultural beliefs. I would be offended if my choices were seen to solely be made based on my ethnicity.

It is obvious that her cultural background has some impact on this as alluded to with her comment of cousin marriage. That being said your assessment that this is predominantly cultural issue seems premature.

If you are serious about challenging your inherent prejudices have you considered Unconscious Bias type training? This isn't intended as a criticism but it may be helpful in your professional role if there is much contact with different cultures to your own.

For example when you go to another Pakistani family or arab family home, you dont ask for a cup of tea. The hosts dont ask you, they just make it. Its daft just a cultural thing.

Pretty much the same in Yorkshire, although you might be asked if you want tea or coffee.

Could be all different reasons as others have said. My husband is Pakistani and from where he is from if the couple has trouble conceiving or only has female offspring (males are preferred to provide income for the family) the wife is the one they blame. I'm sure that's not the case among all Pakistanis but perhaps the wife will be blamed for the genetic problems even though no one is to "blame". It's very sad but unfortunately you won't be able to do anything to help. Just have to hope the other kids dont suffer.

"It's a lot more rare to see societies with second cousin marriages and beyond as socially taboo, compared to first cousin marriages.2

The queen and her husband are second cousins once removed and also third cousins and who knows what else due to the amount of inbreeding among European royals. Not really the same as just a second cousin marriage, even if it's not as risky as a first cousins having children (like Greta Scacchi).