To ask any one of Pakistani descent (Urdu speakers) to please talk about this frankly with me?

[Mebeline]

hi there
I am genuinely trying to understand a conversation i just had with a woman which was loosely related to my professional role. Please don't flame me, I am trying to be actively non-racist after BLM and I am just trying to learn more about cultural norms and values that differ to my own.

She explained to me that her son has a genetic disorder due to 'cousin marriage' in her words, which means that the whole family have weak bones. she went on to tell me that she refused genetic testing , because she was scared about how her husband would react, as she was newly married and her son was young. so she refused genetic testing and so did her husband. I am not sure if relevant, but she has gone on to have another child and is pregnant with a third. She did not tell me if her second child had similar problems as her first.

i do not understand why she would refuse to have genetic testing, and i didn't want to ask further as what she had brought up is not relevant to my professional role, and i did not want to go outside of the boundaries of why she was speaking to me and encourage over disclosure, which she may have later regretted.

Was she afraid that her husband would leave her if her 'genetic material' wasn't good enough?

Surely this is misogynistic abuse? i do not want to collude with this and very much feel as a feminist woman that it is not fair that a woman of colour is experiencing this level of oppression.

Please, to allow this thread to run, can posters avoid racist stereotyping? I am very genuinely asking anyone of Pakistani descent what is going on here and if there is anything i can do to better understand this woman's circumstances and reasons for her actions, and then if there is anything i can do to help her.

TIA

I’m not from that background, but many years ago a Labour MP called Ann Cryer wanted cousin marriage to be made illegal in the U.K. because these sort of genetic abnormalities are very common in some of the communities where cousin marriage is prevalent.

It can be awful for the children and sets them up for a life of disabilities and illness. It’s quite common in some areas of the U.K., such as former mill towns in the Pennines.

I don’t think it should be legal to marry within your family.

@BrimfulOfBaba

I'm from a very similar background, not Urdu-speaking. It is very difficult to answer this question without knowing more about this woman, the cultural code she is part of, her relationship with her family, her level of education. I say this kindly, but I feel like the speculation in this thread is akin to me assuming a white woman worrying about which meal to prepare for her husband is almost certainly worrying because her husband will beat her if she chooses the wrong one.

Thinking about some members of my family, who live in a more deprived area of the UK and didn't prioritise education, genetic testing might sound like paternity testing. They might refuse this because of the implication their husband wasn't the father.

Added to that, 'cousin marriage' is really common in some cultures (anything else would be severely frowned upon, at best, in some circles) and there might be a resistance of being judged or being seen to agree that cousin marriage leads to birth defects. Despite the scientific fact pointing to this, culturally this might be seen as very taboo/world-shattering.

Again, to emphasise, I am speculating based on just some of the very varied and diverse reasons there could be for this particular situation, based on my own family members/friends/community.

If you are genuinely worried she is in an abusive marriage, are you in a position to be able to watch for other signs?

I am in a positon to watch for signs, albeit from a distance, yes and yes i am worried.

@DivGirl

Well I declined testing in pregnancy (not high risk) because I wouldn’t have terminated the pregnancy unless there were abnormalities incompatible with life, and they’d have been picked up at the 20 week scan.

Cousin marriage is exceptionally commonplace within certain cultures, and accounts for the high disability rate within these populations (there was a large scale study done in....Bradford(?) a few years ago). There are a variety of reasons people choose to decline testing, many are cultural but some are religious. Some people just don’t want to know.

I know you’re actively trying not to be racist but that has to include not imposing your beliefs on them. Being a feminist has to include letting other women decide for themselves what is best for them. I wouldn’t say this is misogynistic abuse simply because you do not know the situation well enough to comment.

You make a fair point and no, i do not know the situation well enough and i appreciate your point of view

I am so interested by the comment that trying not to be racist has to include not imposing my beliefs.. but surely if a woman is in a marriage she is afraid of losing, with the deprivation and shame that will go with it, because of her genes this is simply wrong because of the level of damage she will experience because she is a woman, and not the imposition of my belief system?

Sorry, wrote Bangladeshi instead of Pakistani because also thinking of different situation relating to Bangladeshi community. Apols.

Thanks all for posing, I have to get back to work but will check in later.

posting!

@DivGirl sorry, but that’s not right: being a feminist is about the liberation of women and girls from the patriarchy, it’s not about “women getting to decide what’s best for them” - that liberal feminist “choice” line has got women absolutely nowhere.

I’m not a cultural relativist and don’t think A Bad Thing should be allowed just because it’s usual practice in some cultures. FGM is usual practice is some cultures, breast ironing and foot binding is/was usual practice in some cultures - that doesn’t mean they’re ok, that doesn’t mean they should be allowed, that doesn’t mean anyone should be able to choose to do them.

Cousin marriage should not be legal.

First cousin marriage is encouraged in certain orthodoxies despite the scientific proof that it increases significantly the incidence of genetic problems.

The two main reasons are the belief that it keeps the bloodline 'pure' (how ironic) and because it keeps wealth within the family.

@VestaTilley

I’m not from that background, but many years ago a Labour MP called Ann Cryer wanted cousin marriage to be made illegal in the U.K. because these sort of genetic abnormalities are very common in some of the communities where cousin marriage is prevalent.

It can be awful for the children and sets them up for a life of disabilities and illness. It’s quite common in some areas of the U.K., such as former mill towns in the Pennines.

I don’t think it should be legal to marry within your family.

You would need a legally enforceable definition rather than “within the family”, and the question becomes where to draw the line. Just by he debate needed can cause huge offence.

I have several friends born in Pakistan and in traditional arranged marriages.

What you describe is a form of abuse to us, but to my friend this is a cultural norm, that the woman has very little say in a marriage, and going against her husbands wishes would be disrespectful. It is also the case as she would be a Muslim that genetic counselling would be pointless because whatever child is given it is a gift from God, and therefore its life is respected and there would be no thought of abortion. Her fear of being seen as carrying a genetic defect would lower her in the eyes of her husband, although him carrying the gene would have no impact.

To us this is very misogynistic but it is culturally accepted by women, particularly if they have been born in Pakistan or brought up in a strict household. It is not for us to transplant our views on womenhood onto other women however unfair it seems. The friends I know accept that this is an important part of their culture and are insistent they agree with this patriarchy.

The ‘Born in Bradford’ study looks at the issue of cousin marriage and inherited genetic disabilities - while the reports I’ve seen are mostly about the medical issues, there may be some discussion of the cultural reasons. For example:

Bradford study finds higher birth defect risk in married cousins: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-23183102

One extra reason for being afraid of her husband (apart from him probably being an abusive twat)

that is a massive leap, and pretty offensive.
We have no idea if this woman is in an abusive relationship.

i do not understand why she would refuse to have genetic testing, and i didn't want to ask further as what she had brought up is not relevant to my professional role, and i did not want to go outside of the boundaries of why she was speaking to me and encourage over disclosure, which she may have later regretted.

I am very genuinely asking anyone of Pakistani descent what is going on here and if there is anything i can do to better understand this woman's circumstances and reasons for her actions, and then if there is anything i can do to help her.

How can you 'help' her (assuming she wants your help), if you don't want to go outside of the boundaries of why she was speaking to you?

Not Pakistani but do believe it should be illegal for first cousins to marry. It clearly increases the risk of having children with birth abnormalities.

How on earth is private provision of a basic need as a business "abhorrent"? Do ship's give fee food? Do farmers give away their produce because people need to eat?

Or do you prefer the soviet/Eastern European model, where private landlords were banned and the state provided everything, including tiny apartments shared by families, with communal kitchens and bathrooms between several properties?

Or maybe the Scottish council housing scheme slum model, which blighted the lives of many?

Because I don't think social housing in the rest of Europe would meet your exacting standards either.

Just how is society going to provide this cut-price, top quality rental housing if there's no profit or huge tax advantages in it (and landlords are a cash cow in Britain for HMRC).

Omg wrong thread! So embarrassed! Apologies!

@goldenharvest

I have several friends born in Pakistan and in traditional arranged marriages. What you describe is a form of abuse to us, but to my friend this is a cultural norm, that the woman has very little say in a marriage, and going against her husbands wishes would be disrespectful. It is also the case as she would be a Muslim that genetic counselling would be pointless because whatever child is given it is a gift from God, and therefore its life is respected and there would be no thought of abortion. Her fear of being seen as carrying a genetic defect would lower her in the eyes of her husband, although him carrying the gene would have no impact.

To us this is very misogynistic but it is culturally accepted by women, particularly if they have been born in Pakistan or brought up in a strict household. It is not for us to transplant our views on womenhood onto other women however unfair it seems. The friends I know accept that this is an important part of their culture and are insistent they agree with this patriarchy.

I agree, it's very difficult.

I do think that first cousin marriage should be made illegal though. Inbreeding has been proven to lead to disability and very low life chances.

@Mebeline

I am so interested by the comment that trying not to be racist has to include not imposing my beliefs.. but surely if a woman is in a marriage she is afraid of losing, with the deprivation and shame that will go with it, because of her genes this is simply wrong because of the level of damage she will experience because she is a woman, and not the imposition of my belief system?

I think you’re misconstruing the “because of her genes” element of the reasoning. It’s not that her genes would be considered more culpable than his or anything like that. If it is resistance to the whole notion of genetic testing it might be because he is more sensitive to the implication about their cultural norms, IYSWIM.

Maybe you’re determined to see this as a purely feminist issue, when in reality it’s multi-factoral.

I am trying to be actively non-racist after BLM

This is an attitude you have to try to have???

Look this is a stance she is allowed to have. Just because you are a feminist, doesn't mean a) she should think like you do or b) if she doesnt its because of male abuse.
As her DH has also refused the genetic testing would you put that down to the OP's abuse of him or is to equal an approach.
I think there will be control issues in many of these relationships but I think this is more to do with communities as a whole forcing ppl to live within their rules.
Saying that these communities will probably be headed by men and their actions will probably directed the abuse, her DH could be just as a victim as the OP.

I think the reality is even once she’s had the testing and knows the reason why her children have abnormalities - what difference will it make?

I’m guessing she would rather be ignorant about the matter.

Does anyone think making first cousin marriage illegal would work?
How would we enforce it?

I think it should be made illegal, definitely. Enforcing it is another matter.
IMO it's not so very different from fucking your own brother or sister .

I used to work in this area. Unmarried women would often refuse testing because if they turned out to carry the condition they would be unmarriageable.

There was an issue for married women in this community also as if a carrier their husband would be likely to divorce them - never mind that to have an affected child he must also be a carrier, because he would be unlikely to accept testing.

Consider: if two carriers, then the only way to avoid affected child is IVF with pre-implantation testing of the embryo.

Alternative - ante-natal testing (amniocentesis or chorion villus sampling) with termination of affected pregnancy. Both of these were a big no-no as far as the imams were concerned.

I am stating facts, here, as they happened, before anyone flames me.

I appreciate the concern you have raised but please be aware that not all people of Pakistani descent speak Urdu or indeed have cousin marriages. In my experience this is very much dependent on the specific family background.

For your own awareness there are multiple languages spoken by people with Pakistani heritage and Urdu is widely spoken in India too. It seems to me that you are using what little cultural knowledge you have as causation.

The likelihood is that there are other factors at play here and your lack of understanding is not going to help this woman. None of us can explain why genetic testing is not on the table for this woman and her family.

Certainly in my non-muslim, non cousin marrying family, we have an inherited disease, this hasn't stopped us from having our own families and living fulfilling lives while also having to manage this condition.

The filter you are using to assess this situation shows your lack of understanding and your inherent prejudice.