Does anyone know how to denounce their British Citizenship

[Leaannb]

My 18 yo who is a dual citizen of the UK and US would like to denounce his British citizenship due to tax reasons. Any idea how?

You think that the NHS care is any better? 2 years for a simple k ee operation. Don't want to call you a hypocrite but you are a hypocrite. He would die waiting for help on the NHS

The NHS saved my life. The same day I had my blood test, my GP called to get me into hospital straightaway. I was diagnosed with blood cancer the next day. I had loads of treatment then a stem cell transplant and continue to have post transplant treatment. Not once have I had to worry whether insurance is enough to pay for any of this. I'm in contact with many people round the world including the USA who are constantly having to contact their insurance companies for authorisation of medical invoices. Many have had to use their savings, sell their cars, homes, fundraise because their insurance isn't enough. Our NHS has it's problems but I'm so thankful to it for saving my life, and at the point of use I didn't have to pay for any of it, so I feel lucky it exists.

As for your son, at eighteen I don't think he is at an age yet where he can make such decisions about long term issues such as citizenship. However, if he only cares enough about this country to not want citizenship due to tax reasons, then go for it. The exits that way

60k a year really isn't worth denouncing citizenship for

@1940s

60k a year really isn't worth denouncing citizenship for

Especially as it will make no difference to tax..

@ListeningQuietly

He was born on November 5, 2002. I got bored sitting in my house at Newmarket, decided to go shopping at Cambridge, water broke unexpectedly and I was transported to Addenbrookes. Too far away to make Lakenhearh. If he had been born on Lakenjeath this wouldn't be a problem Except that being born in the UK DOES NOT confer citizenship

see Windrush stories passim ad nauseam for the details

Being born in the UK doesn’t confer citizenship but it can be one part of eligibility - in this case the OP seems to be British by descent, and therefore a child of hers born in the UK is British, a child born out of the UK is not (though depending on the circumstances it may be possible to apply for British citizen).

OP as you’ve been told again and again, it’s about being domiciled in the UK not about citizenship. That’s why you’re taxed when you spend half the year in the UK and not when you don’t. But “domiciled for tax purposes” is not as simple as “where are you living”. A UK solicitor, unless a real niche specialist, is unlikely to be able to tell you the tax status of a UK-US dual citizen posted by the US military to the UK... He needs specialist advice and that’s likely to be from the military in the first instance.

You think that the NHS care is any better? 2 years for a simple k ee operation. Don't want to call you a hypocrite but you are a hypocrite. He would die waiting for help on the NHS if it weren’t for the NHS I literally wouldn’t be here now.

And I’ve had plenty of experience of people on hospital wards with me being flown back from holidays in the US where a week long stay in hospital was up to £60k and that was before any treatment, and luckily they had insurance.

One of the reasons I won’t travel to the US any more is the fact that if I fall ill I can’t be guaranteed of decent healthcare because I have a serious heart condition and there’s no knowing that any insurer would cover it.

I was born in the States to 2 immigrants of the UK. My husband was born on US soil living in Germany USAFB. This particular child was born at Addenbrookes and is a UK citizen by birth and through me. I really shouldn't have gone shopping that fateful day

I find these vagueries of nationality and happenstance of birth fascinating! No, in that case your other children wouldn't seem to be UK citizens, or even qualify for citizenship directly through you. Bonkers. Though also, if you can sort out this domicile thing, potentially valuable for him as others have said (as long as the UK and US don't declare war on each other in the next few years, obviously). In which case he may thank you for your fateful shopping trip if he decides to travel or something! At least my US citizenship lets me and my family stand in the shorter and friendlier immigration queue if we go to the US on holiday .

Right now he is domiciled in the US bit after a year living in the UK his domicile will switch to his country of birth
No, it won't.

Are you confusing domicile with residence?

Your domicile of origin does not change - unless you legal acquire a new domicile ("Domicile of choice") and this is only if you intend to indefinitely live in the country you chose to be domiciled to.

Your domicile of origin depends on the father's domicile unless he is not married to the mother. Then it's the mother's that determines it.

(OP, you are UK domiciled, unless you have acquired a domicile of choice.)

I am a dual national (UK/US) and if I had to choose for tax purposes, I would choose UK. The US and Senegal are the only countries that tax your world-wide income. As there is a treaty with US, any tax you pay to UK govt should be taken into account in US filings. If you are very wealthy, have complex holdings, there could be some double taxation.
I think your son should meet with a tax expert (expert on this matter in particular) rather than trying to get random advice on the Internet.

@NotAnActualSheep

I was born in the States to 2 immigrants of the UK. My husband was born on US soil living in Germany USAFB. This particular child was born at Addenbrookes and is a UK citizen by birth and through me. I really shouldn't have gone shopping that fateful day

I find these vagueries of nationality and happenstance of birth fascinating! No, in that case your other children wouldn't seem to be UK citizens, or even qualify for citizenship directly through you. Bonkers. Though also, if you can sort out this domicile thing, potentially valuable for him as others have said (as long as the UK and US don't declare war on each other in the next few years, obviously). In which case he may thank you for your fateful shopping trip if he decides to travel or something! At least my US citizenship lets me and my family stand in the shorter and friendlier immigration queue if we go to the US on holiday .

Thats exactly why I javen't given up anything. Since I travel to the UK so extensively its extremely easy. I-ve explained everything that I know. Bit since I have never given up my citizenship and since I own several properties in the UK I am heavily taxed by both countries. Which is fair. Been doing it for over 30 years. My son on the other hand has no interest in owning property or anything. He considers it a burden rather than a blessing. When you are a dual citizen and serving in the military the process of obtaining security clearance is much more indepth and time consuming. Fair enough it is. I have had several promotions delayed due to that but it wasn't a huge deal to me. It was jist time. He doesn't want to deal with that and is ready to give it up. I even asked him what about Nan and Great Nan they live in Cardiff. He told me Great Nan is 101 and Nan is 85 je shouldn't have to make decisions based on them considering their age. The hilarious part....My oldest son who is also stationed there would love to be a UK citizen and can't

@Moanranger

I am a dual national (UK/US) and if I had to choose for tax purposes, I would choose UK. The US and Senegal are the only countries that tax your world-wide income. As there is a treaty with US, any tax you pay to UK govt should be taken into account in US filings. If you are very wealthy, have complex holdings, there could be some double taxation. I think your son should meet with a tax expert (expert on this matter in particular) rather than trying to get random advice on the Internet.

I understand that since I'm double taxed. He has a zoom appointment tomorrow with my UK accountant. The only thing I have been told so far is do not start the process of giving him the house in Thetford

@MyNameIsArthur

You think that the NHS care is any better? 2 years for a simple k ee operation. Don't want to call you a hypocrite but you are a hypocrite. He would die waiting for help on the NHS

The NHS saved my life. The same day I had my blood test, my GP called to get me into hospital straightaway. I was diagnosed with blood cancer the next day. I had loads of treatment then a stem cell transplant and continue to have post transplant treatment. Not once have I had to worry whether insurance is enough to pay for any of this. I'm in contact with many people round the world including the USA who are constantly having to contact their insurance companies for authorisation of medical invoices. Many have had to use their savings, sell their cars, homes, fundraise because their insurance isn't enough. Our NHS has it's problems but I'm so thankful to it for saving my life, and at the point of use I didn't have to pay for any of it, so I feel lucky it exists.

As for your son, at eighteen I don't think he is at an age yet where he can make such decisions about long term issues such as citizenship. However, if he only cares enough about this country to not want citizenship due to tax reasons, then go for it. The exits that way

Its not only that but Security Clearances are more in depth when you are dual citizen. This is the American in me but if the boy can sign a document to fight in wars he has every right to decide to give up his British Citizenship. As far as NHS....For the most part I love it. I jad wonderful care at Addenbrookes. I still pay NI even though the VA provides me with free coverage and I have private insurance. I just wish they get their shit together so other Americans will see that having Goverment insurance is a good thing

@CherryValanc

Right now he is domiciled in the US bit after a year living in the UK his domicile will switch to his country of birth No, it won't.

Are you confusing domicile with residence?

Your domicile of origin does not change - unless you legal acquire a new domicile ("Domicile of choice") and this is only if you intend to indefinitely live in the country you chose to be domiciled to.

Your domicile of origin depends on the father's domicile unless he is not married to the mother. Then it's the mother's that determines it.

(OP, you are UK domiciled, unless you have acquired a domicile of choice.)

Thats what my UK tax attorney told me so far. That and whatever I do to not transfer the Thetford property to the 18 yo. He told me if I wanted/needed to get rid of it then to either put it on the market or transfer it to my oldest son. Oldest son doesn't want it. He prefers the home in Newmarket.

Actually, @Leaannb I think that you are getting a rough time on here because this issue is so abstruse and legally technical posters don't know what they are talking about and are unaware of the changes to the way non doms are taxed in the UK, which changed some time ago.
.My solicitor just told me that he will be fine for his first year bit his domicile will revert to UK on the 2nd year is that false?

Yes it is false but I think that the problem is likely to be one of terminology. In the UK "domicile" has almost nothing to do with citizenship or residence. It is an immensely complicated area of law (my specialism) but basically, if your husband saw a US state as his homeland (ie the place where he ultimately he wanted to live once all other things such as work etc were over and done with) at the time your son was born, he would almost certainly be domiciled in that state - its called a domicile of origin.

SO I'm going to assume that your son has UK citizenship from you (ie that you had UK citizenship when he was born), US citizenship from both you and his father and a domicile of origin in a US state. WHen he comes here (if I've understood you correctly) he will have 3 sources of income

US military earnings and benefits
UK income from a Barclays Bank account
Investment (passive) income from the US.

Assuming that he doesn't get the benefit of the SOFA (he needs to check this) then the UK/US tax treaty gives the UK the right to tax it as a UK citizen - the treaty gives them the right to do this for the 10 years after the renunciation of UK citizenship as this would be for tax avoidance reasons. UK tax might well be more than US tax as we are not generous with our allowances.

The Barclays income will be taxable in the UK and the US will need to give credit for the UK tax paid under the tax treaty.

The issue is therefore the passive income in the US which is presumably about $35,000? Here your son has a choice. He can leave this in the US and pay tax on it on the remittance basis (ie no UK tax if he leaves it in the US) but he will then lose his UK tax allowances against all of his UK income or pay tax on it in the UK and claim double taxation relief under the treaty.

So in theory renunciation would help as it would put your son firmly into the SOFA category but would not work for the purposes of claims under the double taxation agreement.

I would strongly urge that he gets advice asap from the military about his dual national status and then seeks specialist advice.

From your post, it sounds like your DS is more concerned about the impact of the dual nationality on his career rather than tax specifically. That I can totally understand, especially as it does sound like it has a detrimental effect on speed of progression and so on which may be more important to him in the short- medium term than the link to his heritage etc, and other longer term potential benefits. And in fact, I can kind of understand his thinking on that.

The tax is tricky, but if, as it sounds like, he isn't interested in establishing a "footing" in the UK with property and so on, it may not be such of an issue, if his main income is from the military and US assets which wouldn't be taxed in the UK. As long as you can ensure that his day to day living can be covered in the UK in a way not to be double taxed.

He is still young, though, albeit obviously well looked after and in a financially strong position. He also sounds pretty mature for his age, likely as a result of his career. It is obviously incredibly generous to offer property and so on to set him up, but I would be wary that he may see it more as a "bind" to a country that he doesn't especially feel any affinity to, alongside the tax issues. Maybe your support could be focused in another way that feels less of a burden to him at the moment (I never expect to be in such a position, unfortunately, so can't help with what form that may take!). Your other son may be able to take over the property which may support residence requirements to seek UK citizenship at some point? (Though I don't know if property ownership by a citizen vs non citizen comes with any further red tape).

Assuming that he doesn't get the benefit of the SOFA (he needs to check this) then the UK/US tax treaty gives the UK the right to tax his US government earnings as a UK citizen.....

Oh for an edit button on MN

Thats what my UK tax attorney told me so far. That and whatever I do to not transfer the Thetford property to the 18 yo. He told me if I wanted/needed to get rid of it then to either put it on the market or transfer it to my oldest son. Oldest son doesn't want it. He prefers the home in Newmarket.

I would recommend speaking you UK Tax Attorney again about it. Just to check you haven't misheard what he said.

If he tried to tell you your son's domicile will "switch to his country of birth", then get a new Tax Attorney. Not really joking - domicile is quite basic informatiotn for tax knowledge.

Were you married to your son's father when your son was born? This will determine your son's domicile.

The OP is getting a hard time because she is wilfully misunderstanding the meaning of double taxation treaties
and has clearly bollocksed up either or both her IRS or HMRC returns for several years
but she talks to her solicitor
despite really needing a better accountant

The next question being, how will the UK tax authorities know anything about him. Do we go into the ins and outs of the finances of every US serviceman posted to the UK and living on a base? I would be very surprised if the US military gave us any information whatsoever about whom is posted here.

@NotAnActualSheep

From your post, it sounds like your DS is more concerned about the impact of the dual nationality on his career rather than tax specifically. That I can totally understand, especially as it does sound like it has a detrimental effect on speed of progression and so on which may be more important to him in the short- medium term than the link to his heritage etc, and other longer term potential benefits. And in fact, I can kind of understand his thinking on that.

The tax is tricky, but if, as it sounds like, he isn't interested in establishing a "footing" in the UK with property and so on, it may not be such of an issue, if his main income is from the military and US assets which wouldn't be taxed in the UK. As long as you can ensure that his day to day living can be covered in the UK in a way not to be double taxed.

He is still young, though, albeit obviously well looked after and in a financially strong position. He also sounds pretty mature for his age, likely as a result of his career. It is obviously incredibly generous to offer property and so on to set him up, but I would be wary that he may see it more as a "bind" to a country that he doesn't especially feel any affinity to, alongside the tax issues. Maybe your support could be focused in another way that feels less of a burden to him at the moment (I never expect to be in such a position, unfortunately, so can't help with what form that may take!). Your other son may be able to take over the property which may support residence requirements to seek UK citizenship at some point? (Though I don't know if property ownership by a citizen vs non citizen comes with any further red tape).

He absolutely feel as if the Thetford is a bind to the UK and despite being born and spending most of his childhood in the UK he does feel an affinity for the country. Nothing personal against the Country its just not for him. The UK does not have a high need for Game Wardens which has been his long time dream. I jave several properties in the UK. The majority of them I rent to young Airmen and their families. I had 2 in Newmarket (gave one to my oldest) but the other is rented and I have 3 in Thetford (rented out to Airmen) and 1 in Wales where my mom and Nan lives. Not a boast just facts. Its just that everytime we were stationed at Lakenheath I bought a house. Housing has always been a problem and it's a very real concern and has been since the early 2000s at least.. Especially for servicemen I bought the house in Cardiff after my mother was deported so she would have a place to live.I just offered the Thetford house to him because I did the same for his brother with one of the Newmarket houses and for some odd reason he actually likes Thetford...After talking to my husband and of course him we have decided to just rent him the Thetford house and give him one of the homes in West Virginia. The only way that I can see him being doubled tax is because of his bank account that is held by Barclay's ,his 50 percent share of the commercial fishing enterprise. plus his ownership of a mobile home park here and then we add in his military pay and annuity funds.. I don't know if that is going to push him over the threshold for double taxation. My UK tax attorney has scheduled a zoom meeting for tomorrow with him as he is an adult and they will go over everything

That was suppose to say does not feel an affinity for the UK

@thegcatsmother

The next question being, how will the UK tax authorities know anything about him. Do we go into the ins and outs of the finances of every US serviceman posted to the UK and living on a base? I would be very surprised if the US military gave us any information whatsoever about whom is posted here.

He won't be living on base. He will be living on the economy

But you still need to get a competent accountant to check your IRS and HMRC tax returns

I’m dual us-uk citizen. I have to file a us tax return. There are Americans renouncing their citizenship because this is annoying. I can’t understand why you would renounce uk citizenship if you still want to live here sometimes?

Why was your mother deported from the US?

@Londonmummy66

Assuming that he doesn't get the benefit of the SOFA (he needs to check this) then the UK/US tax treaty gives the UK the right to tax his US government earnings as a UK citizen.....

Oh for an edit button on MN

Thats what people are not understanding. If he makes more than a certain amount a year (UK tax Attorney told me 103,000 American dollars) that he can be taxed on his US goverment wages plus his passive income made in the States which is considerable. He does not jave the protection of SOFA due to being a citizen of the UK. Just like me when I was active duty. My husband was protected but I was not