Universal basic income

[2020yearfromhell]

Does anyone know more about Ubi, would we ever head this way?

Finland tried it I think

I listened to a podcast on it and thought it was a good idea in principle. They trialed it in an American city a while back as well. I think I would need to hear more figures and opinions on it but I like the concept.

There’s lots written about what happened in Finland. From what I can remember it was a success in terms of happiness and fulfilment but not in terms of the economy.

It's an interesting idea. There have been some limited tries that seemed generally positive, but it's difficult to extrapolate.

In the past I've tended to support it, but I worry a bit more about it now. I'm not convinced it would not end up putting more power into the hands of those who have enough money to influence the government.

The cynic in me thinks that the utility providers would work towards getting their hands on all of any UBI provided...

citizensincome.org/news/citizens-basic-income-a-brief-introduction/

Some good introductory info here. Yes it’s really on the table at the moment. A lot of good studies.

I've got a couple of reservations about it

1. It's sometimes sold as less diffcult to administrate than the current system of welfare benefits because everyone's entitled and everyone gets the same.

This could potentially mean some disabled people (who are unable to work and supliment their UBI income) being worse off.

1. Is entitlement on the basis of British Citizenship or Indefinite Leave to remain? In that case, will we end up with British Citizens able to pick and choose work that interests them, knowing they have the cushion of UBI, with a caste of hyper exploited migrant labour picking up the crappy jobs?

Having said all that...I have been coming round to the idea a bit. We need to keep money circulating during lockdowns somehow and it would certainly be fairer than the mix of fulough, small business grants, self employed grants and Universal Credit we have now. It would also prevent unviable businesses from limping on, effectively as mechanisms for administrating furloughs which I feel is storing up economic problems for the future.

There’s lots written about what happened in Finland. From what I can remember it was a success in terms of happiness and fulfilment but not in terms of the economy.

I don't think (also from memory) it was a "failure" economically, just neutral over the length of the study? Mostly in the sense that the participants didn't all rush into employment (which seemed an unrealistic expectation to me given the complex factors involved...).

I do wonder whether over the longer term the improvements to health and well-being would feed into economic activity as well. Plus the economic benefit of people being secure enough to have surplus income to spend.

It does take people a long time to adjust and feel able to fully trust newfound security when they've experienced insecurity. So I'd imagine it could take a while longer than perhaps anticipated before UBI made people feel secure enough to alter their economic activity in any significant way. Especially given that, as I recall, it was trialled with groups who'd faced financial insecurity. (The brain being risk adverse, it learns quickly that something is unsafe/insecure and takes much much longer to adjust to insecurity being replaced with sameness).

Also, the public health angle is valuable and has ripple effects economically. That's why we got a public health service, because having a population in poor health had wider consequences than just for the individuals concerned. It wasn't some generous gift.

I think it goes to the kind of society we want to have and whether we value human life solely for easily measured economic outputs like employment or whether we value the lives people are living and the way we all connect. The distinction between a society that holds disabled people to be an economic burden or inconvenience for having different needs to access employment and one that values disabled people as human beings whose civil rights are beyond question.

The health and well-being part would not just make for a happier life for most people, it would continue to benefit the economy for decades, with less time off for stress-related illness, better long-term health, etc.
I think it would be a humane thing to bring in.
In families, we share resources and support everyone. We don’t punish a family member for being ill or out of work or vulnerable. We just need to extend that way of thinking outwards.

I live close to Geneva and they’ve just voted for this . Basic universal income of 4000 Swiss Francs.

I think it is coming.

The whole taxation/wages model will need revising if we ever have significant robot workforce and this will align with that.

I have wondered if this would encourage people to work more than the current benefits situation. If your basics are covered and you’re not worried about paying the rent and feeding your family then everything you earn is towards having more than the basics and so far more motivating to work for. The trouble with the current situation is you can get caught in a trap of worry about changing anything because the system can take time to catch up.

So is it that everyone would have the ubi, but also consider working in their jobs, I’m quite confused about it? Why are some people worried about it?

Yeah to be honest I get confused about this too. Sturgeon was wanting this in scotland and declared that everyone would get it, including workers I'd assume since she said everyone in Scotland, but her budget for it was nowhere near what it would actually cost. So God knows really what she actually means, it didn't make much sense. Maybe its just meant to be those on benefits. Although I certainly wouldn't turn down 11k a year.

If you wanted a UBI, plus the NHS, education, etc, you’d need to put up taxes. No way around that. As a result of that, businesses relocate abroad, jobs become even more difficult to come by and a chasm between those who work and those who don’t grows.

Then of course inflation goes up, because there's all this unearned money sloshing around. Suddenly the UBI is enough to live on for six months, not a year. They propose putting up taxes again to pay for it and the brain drain of high earners begins in earnest. And then you have a country torn apart. Bad idea!

I don't really understand it. Is it basically a set amount of money given to everyone, then you have the option of working to earn more on top?

How would it work in terms of rent discrepancies across the country? £11k per year for example would cover rent and bills where I live in the midlands, in the south east I doubt it would.

I don’t understand how we’d pay for a universal income when we can’t even fund basic services properly. I like the sound of the idea, but where does all this extra money come from?

@NailsNeedDoing

I don’t understand how we’d pay for a universal income when we can’t even fund basic services properly. I like the sound of the idea, but where does all this extra money come from?

Isn't the idea that UBI is cheaper in administrative purposes than benefits because everyone gets exactly the same every month no matter what?

So there's no need to worry about things like child benefit, working tax credit, universal credit changing depending on the hours you've worked or how many pay days you have that month etc. And even though every adult will receive money it will actually work out cheaper in the long run.

And then because every adult over 18 gets x every month, the admin costs involved should plummet, meaning the money saved could potentially go elsewhere.

inflation is the thing I always think of when I hear of this being suggested. How could it be stopped if all this extra money was put into the economy?

Are the administration costs of the current system down to salaries/employment benefits of paid staff? Get rid of the administration costs then aren't you just getting rid of thousands of jobs? So all those people just join the pool of unemployed, creating a bigger issue?

What else are these administration costs if not jobs and support roles?

a rough calculation gives a total adult population in the uk of around 53 million. at, say, £1000 per month, that would be about £636 billion per year. Even at JSA rate of £74.35 that's £205 billion.

by comparison, all benefits, including pensions, cost around £217 billion. (some of these figures will be a bit off as they are from recent years).
I would imagine that even at £12k per year, many would struggle as this would probably mostly go on rent, yet to achieve it the government would have to raise a further £400 billion in taxes to pay for it.

Thank you @vanillandhoney

The figures are way too big for my little brain to be able to compute, but it seems crazy that we could give every adult in the country minimum wage for free for the same amount we currently spend on benefits and their administration.

Surely there would still have to be some form of benefit though for disabled people whose living costs are higher and people that currently get child related benefits that would add up to more than a basic income would be? If taxes had to rise to pay for it, it would be pointless.

@Queuing4Fergs

Are the administration costs of the current system down to salaries/employment benefits of paid staff? Get rid of the administration costs then aren't you just getting rid of thousands of jobs? So all those people just join the pool of unemployed, creating a bigger issue?

What else are these administration costs if not jobs and support roles?

Building costs IT costs Paperwork Funding of job centres

Also hidden costs like food banks, the cost of people having their benefits docked and not being able to work or feed their families etc.

I hope it comes in. Can you imagine the decrease in stress and anxiety among the population if you knew you had the money to cover the basics. In some ways, Covid was a leveller. People who had previously felt secure and well-off were at risk of losing income overnight.
To the person who asked about discrepancy in rents in different areas - with universal basic income, you wouldn't be tied to an area for a job. You could move to a cheaper place if you needed it. Right now, you can't move until you've found a job in the new place first.
I love the idea of removing all the admin layers in administering benefits. Yes, it would cut jobs, but there would be new jobs as a result of this.