Universal basic income

[2020yearfromhell]

Does anyone know more about Ubi, would we ever head this way?

@vanillandhoney

so if I was happy with my £26k salary currently and considered that enough to live on and provide all the luxuries I wanted (which in many areas it is) why would I continue to work full time and earn £38k, £12k of which I didn't need?

You're just one person, though. Lots of people would think differently to you. I mean, I know I would happily work the same hours I do now for an extra 1k in the bank each month!

If you were happy with your previous salary, you could always work part-time or find a different job.

Yeah but I think a lot of people would be like me - particularly the "squeezed middle" of middle earning professionals - if you asked a lot of people who are doing ok (not earning a fortune but not struggling) would they prefer to earn the same amount for half the hours (and all the savings on tax, NI, childcare and transport you'd make) or work the same amount of hours for maybe a quarter more money, you can't assume everyone would go for the extra money, and, again, would that be the sort of society we'd want from a socialist movement?

I also don't believe the "it would be paid for by the lack of admin currently used in organising benefits" claim. As PP points out, even on a very low amount of UBI it's still far more than the current cost of benefits.

Plus surely there would still be admin even if everyone was entitled to it. You would still need to process new claims of new people becoming eligible every day (either reaching 18, or becoming UK citizens, or whatever the criteria would be). You'd still have the admin when people died, or changed their bank accounts. Presumably if we moved to UBI, those who pay attachment of earnings or child maintenance out of their benefits would need to pay it out of that - more admin. Would people in prison be entitled to it? How about people with children - if it's just a UBI per adult then it's not really universal as how could someone with 4 children survive on the same basic income as an adult with none? How would step families work? etc. etc...I think it's a bit idealistic to say we would magically get rid of all benefits related administrative costs....

Don't get me wrong, I don't like living in our current unequal society and would be interested in any system that could make it a bit fairer - I just don't think UBI is the answer.

Trying to find out how much altering CGT more in line with income tax could raise www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/11/government-review-urges-major-overhaul-of-capital-gains-tax

The idea of a hedge fund manager effectively earning millions in shares etc can pay some of their tax at 10% does not feel right.

Yeah but I think a lot of people would be like me - particularly the "squeezed middle" of middle earning professionals - if you asked a lot of people who are doing ok (not earning a fortune but not struggling) would they prefer to earn the same amount for half the hours (and all the savings on tax, NI, childcare and transport you'd make) or work the same amount of hours for maybe a quarter more money, you can't assume everyone would go for the extra money, and, again, would that be the sort of society we'd want from a socialist movement?

But equally you'd get lots of low earners who could massively boost their incomes overnight. They could suddenly pay off their debts, have money to spend on things like holidays, cars, activities, clothes - which would put money back into economy. While I do agree some people would take the "easy option" of working less, others would happily work more hours if they saw a big improvement in their quality of life.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like living in our current unequal society and would be interested in any system that could make it a bit fairer - I just don't think UBI is the answer.

I don't think UBI is the answer on it's own, but I think it would go a long way to improve the situation. Lots of other things would need to be addressed first - housing and childcare costs being two major ones, as well as the current school system where people can buy their way into decent schools.

I think if people decide to go part-time as a pp wrote, that is a good thing. Those individuals would have more time to spend with their families and/or on personal projects that interest them (which might potentially lead to future earnings). Certainly, they would be less frazzled and that can only be good for mental health. Plus like in lockdown, people would gain time to exercise or do home cooking or gardening....all leading to better health outcomes. The nation would benefit from this by default.
In addition of course, it would open up a part-time vacancy for someone else to do the same.

Employers do MUCH better having more job share employees

Studies show much less time is wasted, employees are much more motivated

It's just conservatism from employers that prevents this seismic change needed to get towards full employment

We genuinely have to RE do everything in society if we're going to survive climate change

Ifailed - in your calculations, have you eliminated the cost of all benefits currently issued, all DWP and HMRC costs to administer them?

Sorry for delay @DianaT1969.
Latest figures I can see are for 2016/17, where staff costs etc. were £6.2 B against a spend of £173 B, so 3.5%. Doesn't really make much of a dent in the extra £400 B required to pay every adult £12k pa.

I think it's a good idea, but to be workable it will need to be low. Too low to make the current benefits system obsolete, instead it would underpin it and maybe paper over some cracks.

I'm thinking something like £10 a day, credited daily to people's bank accounts, if that's administratively possible. Then you've guaranteed no-one's going to starve. Once you've achieved keeping people alive, you leave it to the more complex and more fallible Universal Credit to cover other things, such as housing, in an affordable way.

The money paid out would be offset against benefits (for people not working) or by reducing the personal allowance (for people with taxable income)

It wouldn't really be unaffordable to implement because it would only convey a net benefit to a minority of people. Most in work or managing on other benefits would not be better off.

I don't see any point in having a low UBI. The aim is to dismantle the more complicated existing benefits system and replace it with a simple, single payment. We need to save all the costs of administering a complicated system (back to work assessments/medical checks/housing benefit claims/PIP) etc. £800-£1000 per month would keep everyone sheltered and fed in every part of the UK. It wouldn't be easy to live on that in the South East, but with UBI people could move for work.

It might be helpful in situations such as child tax credits ending as soon as a child hits a certain age or leaves education. I've found my children are at a point where they still need support at this stage but suddenly there is no money to support them with. Bills stay the same, child still needs feeding, clothing etc. Yes, sometimes they have a job to help but that can be barely more than £6hr and they have their own expenses too. I'm sure many single parents would find it helpful for their adult child to be getting UBI at that stage.

@LaurieFairyCake

Employers do MUCH better having more job share employees

Studies show much less time is wasted, employees are much more motivated

It's just conservatism from employers that prevents this seismic change needed to get towards full employment

We genuinely have to RE do everything in society if we're going to survive climate change

Depends on the job.

"Pile 'em in" jobs like shelf stackers, call centres, shop assistants, etc., that require relatively low levels of training/experience, then, yes, having a bigger pool of workers is a no brainer.

But, for the top technical/expert jobs, where years of training/experience are required, you are really going to struggle where you have to train 2 or 3 people to do the work of a full time worker. That can't be done overnight, and needs years/decades of planning involving increasing the number of training places etc. Yes, in the longer term, you have more "experts", but that costs money and takes time.

I love the idea or as a PP said even with universal childcare I'd be more than happy. I think it would.make most people asprational. I'd definitely go and work to get extra money but would have to worry that childcare is eating my salary.

Like I said before.... They discussed it and it was something rediculous like £48 a week.... Not what everyone is hoping for..

It's the every adult part that gets me because how would it work with children do they get money too or no? Right now I get universal credit its simple plus DLA for my youngest plus carers allowance

We have a system in place we should make it work for us rather than changing it again the original universal credit idea was sound