To think Amazon is the future and should be bought by the state

[GoldfishParade]

This isnt meant to be a polarising discussion, more a debate. Theres lots of talk about supporting local businesses and not "feeding" Amazon. But in addition to the obvious advantages Amazon brings for people on low income, people living remotely, people who struggle to get out, doesnt Amazon also serve as a platform for small businesses to sell their stuff?

Instead of fighting Amazon, shouldn't we be embracing it as the future of retail, and instead think about how our high streets can be revolutionised to move away from retail and to be more about services and community spaces?

I even think Amazon should be franchised out to states so it becomes a public service. Or maybe ambitious states could copy Amazon's model and get rid of the post office and replace it with a kind of post office/Amazon hybrid.

I just cant help but think with shop owners that although I feel upset for them that they are struggling, we do also have to move with the times: and the times want 24h delivery and huge choice.

Maybe the old high street is dead and instead of trying to fight off the inevitable we should be looking at creative ways of bringing the high street back to life which totally break away from the old shop-focused model.

What do you think?

@Pinkandwrinkly

You have to ask permission to use the loo.. Leaving your work station can result in disciplinary action. I used to work at one of their depots.

I don't know of any high street retail job that would allow its employees just to wander off to the loo with mentioning it to someone.

To get back to the OP's original question, I do think some of the necessities of life should be nationalised (healthcare, energy, public transport). But not sure about online shopping.

Moistmolly there is a difference between mentioning to someone that you're going to the toilet and having to ask. Dignity for a start.

I think Amazon is great- you can buy what you want at a competitive price and have it delivered quick smart. It’s also an excellent outlet for many small businesses (like ebay) who would otherwise probably have gone bust.

I don’t agree that it should be run by the state though. It’s a commercial enterprise that sells consumer goods (or provides a platform for others to do so). No need for state involvement. As someone else noted above, the efficiency and innovation of Amazon compares very favourably to the public sector which I have found to be the opposite when I have worked there or used public services.

There’s no evidence Amazon treats or pays its employees any worse than the rest of the retail sector. Certainly none at all they don’t comply with their legal obligations. Also the nonsense about it paying no tax, it doesn’t.

Amazon also isn’t owned solely by Jeff Bezos. It’s a listed company which (like every other listed company) is mainly owned by our pension funds, Isas and life insurance policies. So it’s helping us invest and build wealth too.

@thedevilinablackdress - you would generally need to ask though in retail wouldn’t you. I worked in a supermarket as a student and had to ask to go to the toilet if I was working on the shop floor. Same in call centres. It’s normal.

Is there even credible proof that Amazon doesn’t pay its taxes? People just seem to repeat that on faith

It shouldn't be normal to ask to go to the toilet anywhere though. I've worked in both those settings and wish I'd known better and stood up for myself.

@thedevilinablackdress - why do you think Amazon “doesn’t pay its taxes”? Do you think HMRC have just not bothered to enforce the law?

@thedevilinablackdress - isn’t it just about managing work and ensuring that work stations are manned. If all the checkout operators had wandered off at any particular time it would hardly be ideal. I don’t see an issue with having to ask as long as you are not unreasonably refused.

How would the government take it away legally from the current shareholders, who are primarily in the US? Even if you could separate just the UK bit and steal that it would be cut off from all of the software and other technology that makes Amazon possible.

And in a year it would be like dealing with a government agency.

@thedevilinablackdress

Moistmolly there is a difference between mentioning to someone that you're going to the toilet and having to ask. Dignity for a start.

But it is normal to ask, especially if you need someone to cover for you, like being on the tills.

@UsedUpUsername I think it's more that legislation hasn't caught up with the rise in e-commerce, if it was updated they would be liable to pay a load more.

It’s sort of like Tesco was a few years ago. Some people complained about Tesco setting up stores and “taking money away from local businesses”. But the reason for that (When it’s true) is that people preferred to shop in Tesco because they are getting what they want, in the way they want at the price they prefer. It’s competition and is the heart of capitalism.

@Daisymaze - what evidence do you have for that? How would they be paying more? Tax law changes constantly- why would it not have caught up with something that happened decades ago?

Just to be clear capitalism and competition means Amazon is successful because it delivers what consumers want at the lowest price. When it doesn’t do this anymore it will no longer be successful.

I don't know why HMRC haven't enforced the law or maybe there are too many exploitable loopholes. I'm not a tax expert.
And re. the going to the toilet thing, of course I understand staffing levels at checkouts etc. but the onus should be on supervisors and managers to manage, not staff. The nuance of the power dynamics matter I guess. Maybe I just had some terrible bosses in the past.

I also wonder at what point monopolies legislation would ever kick in too prevent market domination and potential abuse of that power.

I have Amazon shares in my IRA (Individual Retirement Account). Would I get a check from the UK government if Amazon's UK operations were nationalized?

OP, have you thought about the impact on foreign investment in the UK if the government can just start grabbing up companies against their will?

@CayrolBaaaskin look at what Amazon have said against the law- they pay everything they have to, but route a lot of it through (legal) 'loopholes' and clever proportioning of profits and where those are filed internationally etc. Again, they aren't doing anything wrong, but no, the law still hasn't effectively caught up with e commerce.

But Bezos wouldn’t sell Amazon to the state.

Carol, it’s called tax avoidance (rather than evasion).

Amazon is the future, yes.

But the state buying it? OMFG NO. It works because it is private. If the state owned it, it’d get fucked up, just like our education, social care and NHS. Do you really want the government to control Amazon? Have you been smoking crack?

Amazon works. The government (any party) fuck everything up.

Why on earth would Amazon sell its platform to the state?

Let's not wish our health, education and social care into private businesses' hands. Yes, it might be more efficient...if you can afford it.

I've worked in local and civil service and the idea of nationalising such businesses is laughable. They'd ditch the front line workers for policy departments in a week.

Amazon pay a lot of tax, just not enough for the tastes of some people.

Although it would be amusing to come on here and read threads about the nasty Tories underfunding it in due course.