To not force my DD to be around dogs to get over her fear?

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

My DD (8) has a fear of dogs - not all dogs, mostly large ones and especially ones that jump up. Her grandad has a small Jack Russell who is very gentle and who she adores, but anything bigger than say a cockapoo and she's completely different. She doesn't go into hysterics, she doesn't panic, she just backs off and won't go near them.

Pre-lockdown (1.0 ) my friend got a Lab puppy. We went to see her when she was tiny and she was very nippy especially when the kids ran so my friend mainly kept her in her cage.

Lately she's much bigger, and DD was really wary of her. She's less nippy but very "in your face" and jumps up a lot. We went there before lockdown 2.0. Again she was kept in the cage, as she always is when visitors go round, but my friend's kids kept getting her out. Every time they did, rather than putting her back in (or telling her kids to stop doing it) she would take her by the collar to DD and say "do you want to say hello to Lucy". Not in an awful way, she was trying to be helpful as she could see DD was on edge. I thought I'd let DD take the lead and see if she felt brave enough to stroke the dog but she said no each time, and after the 3rd or so time I said to my friend I really don't think she wants to just leave it.

We eventually left, her kids kept getting the dog out the cage and it was getting really nippy, DD was getting nervous so we went home.

Again I think my friend is just trying to be helpful as she's offered to lend us the dog for walks to see if DD could get used to her and maybe overcome her fear.

My AIBU is - AIBU to not push DD to get over this, as it's not an irrational or debilitating fear, and doesn't really affect her life much? I really don't to subscribe to the "to get over your fears to have to face them" mentality. Is living with a mild fear of dogs (some of which are actually scary or potentially dangerous) such a bad way to live your life?

I mean I may be projecting - I have a crippling fear of heights, i can just about manage sleeping on the top bunk but any higher and I get nervous. As a child my mum dragged me up tall buildings on days out and trips away at every opportunity to help me overcome it. All it resulted in was even worse fear coupled with panic attacks 🙄

A couple of things from me as someone who has dogs. I seriously would not make her face her fear. I think you need to take this slowly and carefully. As others have said dogs know when someone is afraid and this can make them over excited. I wouldn't take her to your friends house until the dog is a little older and calmer.
I also think it's very unfair on both the pup and the family to keep a young dog caged up because a visitor doesn't like them. No one is welcome in my home who can't cope with my beloved dogs being out.
Your friend suggested a walk, and I think it's a good idea for you, your friend and her children and your daughter to walk the dog together as long as the dog stays on lead with your friend. This would be a gentle exposure with the distraction of other children that could be built on over time.

Dogs can pick up on fear and it can either exacerbate attention-seeking behaviour in a friendly dog or worse in a less social dog. So I think there’s some merit to exposure therapy, especially as dogs are readily encountered in life.
But exposure therapy is slightly more complex than your friend bringing her Labrador over all the time, though I suspect she meant well. Though as a breed, Labs are probably quite a good one to work with. They’re generally extremely good natured, very trainable and full of beans.

@LauraBassi the dogs and the walkers have as much right to walk there as you do. What are you mad about? That they’re there? Off the lead? It doesn’t sound as though any of the dogs were actually approaching you, just running around being dogs. If the dogs were out of control, I’d understand your anger but it doesn’t sound like they were from your post?

This is why exposure therapy is beneficial. We all share the same space. And living in a ‘semi-rural’ area, you will encounter dogs.

Exposure therapy does work, but it needs to be with a controlled well behaved dog not a nippy family pet.

If you're in the NW once the world gets a bit more normal you're welcome to borrow DDog. She can sit with sausages on her paws and completely ignore them so ignoring a child will be no problem. She ignores my 2 daily 😂

I would encourage my child to face and get over any fear they had - why wouldn't you? What's the benefit to her in remaining scared?

I think you'd both feel better about it if you talked about it and decided to tackle it together though.

Your are not being unfair. Let her take the lead and let her decide if she wants to walk your friends dog.
I was petrified of dogs as a child after being attacked by one as a toddler. Friends parents, family members & random people with dogs would try and force me to stroke their dogs.
I honestly think this caused me to be more scared as people made such a big deal about it. Whereas I was simply trying to avoid the dog.
Later in childhood I decided myself to start trying to get over it. I started walking ahead of my parents on walks when seeing a large dog to walk past them alone (previously I was so scared I had to be lifted over fences/walls to hide from them) or making an effort to stroke a friends dog.
This was if my own accord when I felt ready. Today I’m still a bit nervous when a giant dog I don’t know comes near me but no one would know. I also go many doggy walks with friends dogs.
I’m sure your daughter will interact with with a dog when/if she wants too

[quote Winterwoollies]@LauraBassi the dogs and the walkers have as much right to walk there as you do. What are you mad about? That they’re there? Off the lead? It doesn’t sound as though any of the dogs were actually approaching you, just running around being dogs. If the dogs were out of control, I’d understand your anger but it doesn’t sound like they were from your post?

This is why exposure therapy is beneficial. We all share the same space. And living in a ‘semi-rural’ area, you will encounter dogs.[/quote]
They should not be off the lead. I dont understand why dog owners think there dog is so extra special that they can run around and charge at people whilst off the lead. ( just because they are so cute and love saying ‘hello’. On this occasion the dogs were running around at the entrance to the bridge we needed to go through them.

I’m well aware where I live there are lots of dog walkers. I see them shitting on the bridal path outside my gate most days. There is one particular dog who has runny shit. Their owner can’t pick up so leaves it. But hey that’s a downside of living here.

However - they should be on a lead. If dog owners don’t care about other people that are bothered by them running loose they should at least be aware that other dogs might not take to kindly to them.

No, don’t force her. If someone comes to my house and isn’t comfortable with dogs, I put them in their crates. I’d prefer to keep them out (or bring them out when I’ve got guests settled) and I imagine your friends is the same. From that point of view, your DD being OK around dogs is what she wants. It might not be in the best interest of your DD though. Especially an introduction with an overtired, over excited lab puppy. Your friend’s dog is less than a year old, it still needs a lot of sleep and her children need to be taught that you don’t disturb the dog when it’s asleep/on it’s crate. That’s when bites happen. Dogs also need to learn that not everyone is interested in talking/playing with them, even in their own house. If your friend has people in to work on the house, such as electricians, they might be fine with dogs but having one running round your feet whilst you’re trying to work is not acceptable.

From your DDs point of view, it might be helpful to learn about dog behaviour and body language. She can still be wary of dogs but she knows what to look for in a dog that might bite her. If you wanted to introduce her to a big dog, I’d pick an older, well-trained dog. You could do some training with the dog so DD knows how to control a dog but the dog is calmer and more approachable.

@SushiGo

I would encourage my child to face and get over any fear they had - why wouldn't you? What's the benefit to her in remaining scared?

I think you'd both feel better about it if you talked about it and decided to tackle it together though.

Oh god. I really wish I would have tried this....

My daughter doesn't like dogs at all and gets upset when they jump up..which I don't like either. Nothing for her makes it better as she also hates being licked and muddied which often happens when they do jump.

My sister in law has a dog and won't move it out of the room when we used to visit on principle. As a result we haven't visited her house for several years now as she is insistent that if we visit the dog has free roam.

All for a dog!

My eldest doesn't like dogs. Started as just not liking them and then ramped up to full on fear as some idiot let her massive dog chase round and round him when we we leaving school.
"Oh it's fine, he's just playing!" didn't mean anything to my then six year old who was faced with a dog who was as tall as he was.
He had quite a few panic moments after that as we walked through a park to get to school. I'd have to repeat "No, that dog isn't interested in you, look the owner has it under control." or "Just hold my hand and look away from it."
He isn't actively scared any more, but still dislikes dogs. There's nothing wrong with that, I've always much preferred having a cat!

I was petrified of dogs as a kid after a bad experience. My parents got a dog though and I walked in the sofa and chairs I avoid her nipping me for a few weeks. I adored that flea bag and now adore all dogs so it can work but what’s your friend is doing won’t as other people tried to introduce me to dogs and I was just scared of them.

@LauraBassi well, dogs won’t be on leads because that’s not the law, generally. If you told the woman that your daughter was worried, rather than shouting you’d put a boot up the arse of her friendly dog, I’m sure she’d have rounded them up for you to let you pass in comfort.

[quote Winterwoollies]@LauraBassi well, dogs won’t be on leads because that’s not the law, generally. If you told the woman that your daughter was worried, rather than shouting you’d put a boot up the arse of her friendly dog, I’m sure she’d have rounded them up for you to let you pass in comfort.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure she could tell she was worried. Three dogs of a leash at the mouth of a bridge where cars and pedestrians cross is unacceptable.

Owners that do this are thick.

Puppies really aren't the best idea - they are learning themselves and do nip in play. A calm older dog is a better choice

I have a PAT dog and one of the services offered is providing calm and temperamentally suited dogs for desensitisation therapy.

I believe in exposure therapy, it's a different thing from just having what you're scared of shoved in your face. I wish I'd had it to overcome my phobia of birds because honestly, having a fear of something you will see every time you leave the house is no way to live, you can often avoid heights, dogs are everywhere.

I was badly mauled by a dog when I was a child, I learned about dog behaviour and signals to help with the apprehension, how to recognise the difference between play and aggression etc. I'm now the world's biggest dog nut.

Your DD’s fear is perfectly sensible and rational. It may protect her from becoming one of the 250,000 people who attend A and E each year in the UK with dog bites. (Or one of the 13 children killed by dogs here since 2006).
I expect each of those quarter million victims was told “Oh he’s only being friendly, he wouldn’t hurt a fly.”
Dogs are predatory carnivores descended from wolves. It doesn’t take much for them to revert to their natural behaviour. I’d advise your DD to continue to give them a wide berth.

Oh wow. ^

I was terrified of dogs, would cross the road to avoid them and cry if one went near me. It didn't affect my life much aside from busy parks with off-lead dogs were a nightmare and it was awkward visiting friends and family who had dogs as I needed them to be locked away or I couldn't come in. It all stopped once I had a dog of my own.

I realised I was scared of dogs because I didn't understand them/their body language, I worried they would suddenly start attacking me or get aggressive. However, now I have a dog I know unless a dog is unwell that kind of rapid change of behaviour doesn't happen, there are small subtle signs you can pick up on. For example, if a dog is licking its nose it is stressed so give it some space.

Maybe it would help if you could show your daughter ways that dogs communicate how they are feeling and how to act around dogs so she understands them better and feels more in control?

I think it would be beneficial to your dd to overcome this fear.

Firstly because it is very hard to avoid dogs and not being afraid of them is more pleasant than being afraid.

Secondly because it would be a useful life lesson for her in facing up to things that you are scared of/make you feel uncomfortable and overcoming them. It is well recognised that avoiding things that make you fearful or anxious is actually a bad idea as it just reinforces anxiety and fear and reinforces the belief that you can't cope with things that make you feel bad.

There is an idea of a fear ladder where you sit down together and work out what steps she would need to take in her journey of overcoming her fear.

We did this with 2 of my dc as they were terrified of dogs and we got a puppy which they were initially terrified of too!! So the ladder might be, 1. being in the same room, then 2. stroking the dog while it's on a lead, then 3. Letting the dog mouth their hand etc.

You then gradually go up the ladder, moving up each rung as you feel comfortable with the rung you're at. Eventually you get to the top of the ladder and you're not scared any more.

The important thing I guess is that she is in control of the steps she takes and how quickly, rather than someone else forcing it on her. Initially you would work with her to gain her buy in that she wants to overcome the feee as by looking at how it affects her and what benefits she would get by overcoming it.

One of my children was very nervous round dogs, until they encountered two beautifully-trained gun dogs on a friend’s farm. Still not keen, but no longer afraid.
If you do decide to try and reduce her fear by exposing her to dogs, be very selective and avoid all the arseholes with ‘friendly’ beasts with poor training and no recall.

If you did want to get DD exposure to overcome her fear, an older placid dog would be much better than a bouncy teenage lab!

If her fear isn’t interfering with her daily life YANBU to not try and force her to face it.

I wouldn’t force her.
Lab pups have teeth like razor blades, plus they love to nip and if she squeals it may make the pup do it more.
I don’t think it’s a good thing to be scared of dogs though, wary but not scared.

Not everyone likes dogs. That's allowed. Aside from what a great many posters on Mumsnet will tell you, if a person doesn't like dogs it does not make them a monster. (If a disclaimer's necessary I do love dogs but accept that others don't, just as I accept that complete strangers will not necessarily be as enamoured with my DC as I am).

I'm assuming that by 'nippy' you mean 'fast-moving' as opposed to 'likes to nip with its teeth'. If the former it's not so much of a problem; if the latter I wouldn't be allowing any child of mine within a mile of this dog. Aside from which, the loveable Labrador is the breed that is most likely to bite.

There's no earthly need to impose some form of aversion therapy to get your DD used to dogs. You'd be doing no favours either to the child or the dogs.

It would be a lot easier for people to get used to dogs and ease their fears if more owners were prepared to put the hard yards in to train dogs properly.

For too many owners the novelty of a puppy rapidly wears off and the most they're prepared to do is stare at their phone while walking a dog who jumps/barks/growls at every passer by (and their dog).
(We've all seen them).

Some dogs would really benefit from a change on owner.