AIBU to think I’ve been shafted by work?

[WhatACovidNightmare]

Hi Mumsnetters,

I've been on maternity leave and was due to go back part time but use some of my holiday allowance to get paid my full time salary. A lot of my holiday was carried over as they told me they were not able to pay my accrued holiday during my maternity leave as was planned.

As I was due to go back, my work (which has been significantly affected by Covid) said they couldn't pay my holiday pay (again) until the new year and would need to come back part time but on part time pay. Fine, it's only a couple of months and wanted to do my bit to help despite this not being something we had budgeted for.

I started back part time last week but now due to the latest lockdown I have been furloughed.

Now my work have said that I will be paid 100% of my part time hours (rather than the 80% furlough) but need to take the same amount of holiday days as I am having off. So essentially I'm having to take 10 days holiday but receiving 2 days pay. What’s extra annoying is that had I been getting my holiday pay as planned, my working hours wouldn’t have changed and I would have been eligible for furlough on my FT hours.

AIBU to think I’ve been totally shafted?

YABU - Covid is just a shitty situation, you’re being propped up by the taxpayer so should count yourself lucky. It’s a few days holiday and not worth souring relations and putting your neck on the chopping block for.

YANBU - it’s totally unreasonable for them to expect you to use your holiday in this way. This is money you are entitled to and time away from your family.

To add - I have worked there a very long time, was not given a generous maternity package (a couple of weeks over statutory) but they were flexible with my return date allowing me a bit of extra unpaid leave as my DC didn’t settle at childcare well.

Thanks if you got this far!

What you are describing is illegal!!

Annual leave taken during furlough is paid at full pay by your employer and not covered under the furlough scheme. I think your employer is confused. Go to acas. If you haven’t agreed a new contract then you are still full time so furlough should be 80% of your full time hours, and any holiday should be at full pay.

Get your post moved to employment issues OP. HR experts be there. As you’ve recently returned from maternity leave I don’t think your part time hours are your normal pay for the purposes of calculating furlough pay .,,

www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/workers-furlough-coronavirus

What they are doing is illegal- they can only claim furlough if you are furloughed, NOT on annual leave

You can be furloughed when on annual leave. A lot of companies are stipulating employees take holiday when on furlough to reduce the holiday entitlement. If I'm understanding the OP correctly, (from her post at 19:10), then what the employer is doing is legal.

www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-entitlement-and-pay-during-coronavirus-covid-19

Thanks everyone, my uncle is actually an employment lawyer so have asked him for a call.

I feel really let down tbh, I work for a female led company and this feels like a really low blow.

By the sounds of thing because you have been off it’s easier to palm you off! It certainly sounds like you are getting shafted - why can they not pay your holiday pay but they can pay everyone else’s??

[quote OllyBJolly]What they are doing is illegal- they can only claim furlough if you are furloughed, NOT on annual leave

You can be furloughed when on annual leave. A lot of companies are stipulating employees take holiday when on furlough to reduce the holiday entitlement. If I'm understanding the OP correctly, (from her post at 19:10), then what the employer is doing is legal.

www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-entitlement-and-pay-during-coronavirus-covid-19[/quote]
This isn’t what they’re doing. Their proposal is that I give up a days holiday for each day that I’m furloughed so that rather than only get 80% of my day rate I get 100%, the remaining 20% coming from that day holiday. Thus losing 80% of my holiday day.

It's perfectly legal for work to make you take leave whilst you are on furlough as long as they top you up to 100% pay. I don't think they are doing anything wrong.

@Racoonworld

It's perfectly legal for work to make you take leave whilst you are on furlough as long as they top you up to 100% pay. I don't think they are doing anything wrong.

Ok, even if it is legal, they have asked me to sign something which says I will take a days holiday for each day I'm furloughed. What if this goes on for months? It seems pretty unreasonable still.

If you take holiday during furlough they HAVE to pay you at 100% for the holiday.

It doesn't sound legal to me at all.you are either on leave or on furlough. You can't be both. You can use your leave while on furlough but you are effectively coming 'back to work' (ie off furlough) for those days. Which they have to pay you for.

That was my understanding and what my work has done.

But I'd be interested in hearing what your uncle says. Or perhaps talk to maternity action?

1. you have a full time contract. You agreed to spread some holiday over your first weeks back so you would only be in work part time but still working full time.

1. Now they are paying you as if you are on a part time contract. (forgetting that the 2(for example) days you were NOT in work a week were actually holiday!)

1. They are making you use holiday for this part time work whilst you are being furloughed to ensure you still receive 100% pay for the part time hours.

1. there is some debate about when they can pay you some accrued holiday, with them putting back the timescale as they can't afford it.

Is that right? I'm a bit confused.

If so, number 2 and 4 sound illegal to me.

Number 3 sounds really annoying but, it's 2020 and we all have to try to survive!

Hope your uncle can help you to unravel it all!

I agree with the pp that they can request you to take annual leave during your furlough. They have to pay you at 100% but can only reclaim 80%.

You requested P/T and the company agreed/planned on that basis. You can't just say I've changed my mind I want F/T without the company agreeing it.

You want furlough F/T pay when you weren't going to be working F/T?

Unreasonable and grabby.

Unless I’m missing something, you’re essentially getting an extended maternity leave, fully paid at part-time salary. Lucky you!

Sounds to me like they are trying to change your situation so that they win in every direction!

@Thisisnotataste It is legal to be on leave whilst furlough.

@WhatACovidNightmare lots of companies are making people do this. It's to stop people having lots of holiday left whilst effectively being on 'holiday' once on furlough anyway, and also to save money as they only have to pay 20% on top of the furlough amount instead of 100% once furlough finishes. As lots of companies are struggling at the moment it is actually sensible of them.

This isn’t what they’re doing. Their proposal is that I give up a days holiday for each day that I’m furloughed so that rather than only get 80% of my day rate I get 100%, the remaining 20% coming from that day holiday. Thus losing 80% of my holiday day.

No, they are not. They are insisting you take your holiday when you are furloughed. You are being paid 100% for these days. You are not losing out.

I would have thought you are still classed as full time. You were never part time. You should be furloughed at 80% for 3 days. You can use holiday alongside furlough so would be paid 100 % for the remaining 2 days. Contact hr - it sounds like a mix up.

Very odd approach they are taking.

Agree with PP that if you have a FT contract and have never agreed to a variation to that to part time (ie the plan was always to be paid on the basis of FT but you would use some holiday to mean you didn’t actually work FT for a while) then they have to furlough you on a full time basis. (Or furlough you part time and pay you to work the rest of the time, as part time furlough is now permitted).

They can make you take holiday during the furlough period as long as they pay you at 100% for those days BUT they have to give you twice as much notice of the requirement to take holiday as the amount of holiday you are being required to take. So if they want you to take two days holiday, they have to give you at least four days notice of that. Make sure they are doing that properly!

I’m not really sure why people are saying it’s illegal for the company to have you on furlough & annual leave...

Your employer can absolutely request that you take any annual leave. They just have to give you twice as much notice e.g. if they want you to take 1 week they need to give 2 weeks notice in best practice.

You absolutely can be on furlough/annual leave at the same time. The only difference is that you will receive 100% pay for the days you’re on annual leave so they will top furlough up by 20%. This is completely legal & many employers are doing this otherwise they’d be left with hundreds of employees with a whole years worth of annual leave to take in a short period/carry over.

It’s still worth speaking to ACAS to check but I’m certain what I’ve said is correct OP.

This happened to me. I was furloughed and was paid 80% of my wages. I was told I had to use some of my holiday in this time. So for an annual leave day I was paid 100% of my salary. Therefore I was effectively paid 20% of my annual leave.

Eg Usually £100 day rate. On furlough £80 paid. On an annual leave day during furlough I was paid £100. But if I hadn’t taken annual leave I would have been paid £80 so the annual leave only have me am extra £20.

I do think this is legal but is very annoying for you.

Your initial plan on a full time contract:
Monday working Paid £100
Tuesday working paid £100
Wednesday Working paid £100
Thursday Annual leave paid £100
Friday annual leave paid £100

Your employers proposal:
Monday Furlough £80 Annual leave £20
Tuesday furlough £80 Annual leave £20
Wednesday Furlough £80 Annual leave £20
Thursday nothing
Friday Nothing

Is this correct?

If so I think they have incorrectly assumed you are coming back part time. They should be paying you for full time so 5 days of furlough. However they may try to make you take 5 days of annual leave instead.

Also there are some PP who are suggesting you are not losing out. But you 100% are losing out. I had this discussion with my DH when it happened to me.

He thought well I’m being paid 100% of my wages for an annual leave day so I’m not losing out.

However that annual leave day could be used at another point in time and instead of the day being topped up 20% you could use it later and get 100% of your day rate. You are losing 80% of your day rate as the annual leave could be used later on the year.

It took a while for my DH to get his around this too.

Not sure about the furlough and FT hours.

Re Holidays, as I understand it, if you have to take holidays during furlough, the company should pay you in full for those days. The holidays you accrued whilst on maternity would have been accumulated on FT hours, before the PT hours were agreed so would assume you might be paid in full for those? Might be completely wrong.