If you WFH what time should you start work?

[EatPrayYoga]

If official hours are 9-5, is it a problem if you are not logged on by 9 every day?

I'm a team manager and one person on the team consistently logs on after 9 am. I know because our system shows a green or other colour next to everyone's names in an email so if I email the team I can see who is online and who isn't.

I usually send an email in a morning to confirm any things to be aware of for that day including who is not working that day and who is covering their work.

He usually logs on at about 9.05 but I'm not sure whether to mention this as he is only slightly late. He is in a junior role but wants to progress. There are other people in the same role who start work earlier than 9 to get things done so he stands out as doing less though I can't say who does more or less work in a day as their work is delegated by different members of the team.

I also realise we are in difficult times. He lives with parents and has no children or pets but I believe there are other adult siblings do not sure how easy or difficult the WFH circumstances are.

IABU to be unimpressed?

[sally067]

Sounds like you and the company value presenteeism above productivity which is fair enough and within your rights as a manager.

The company I work for is extremely flexible, when we worked in the office pre-covid I used to roll in at 10.15 every day and head home at around 4pm. No one battered an eyelid and I never took any notice of what times people would clock in and clock out. In fact part of our interview process looks to root out people who have old fashioned views about presenteeism and time spent at a desk.

As long as the work gets done and others aren't impacted by the hours people work then live and let live. Trust people to act like grown up and you get much better results.

[Strugglesjob]

Oh right, so you’re expecting unpaid overtime as standard?

And then moan about logging on 5 minutes late...

[JacobReesMogadishu]

By all means tell him. It'll give him a heads up of the culture of the company and may well influence whether he decides to look for another job.

[ThePluckOfTheCoward]

In my working career you were expected to be ready to start work at your agreed start time, so if that was 9am, you were expected to be in the office before 9am in order to switch on your computer, get yourself a coffee, use the loo etc and be at your desk ready to rock and roll at 9am.

I don't know if it's worth saying anything because when he doesn't get the chance to progress and others are chosen for promotion instead of him due to their work ethic then he hopefully will either get feedback or work out for himself that starting work at 9.05 and switching off dead on 5pm and never being able to do any extra or urgent work is not the way to go if you are really keen to impress and progress in your career. I mean if hasn't worked that out then he doesn't sound too bright. However, if you think he is someone who deserves the benefit of the doubt and some feedback and guidance on how his work ethic will affect his chances of progression then yes, talk to him.

[ConstantlySeekingHappiness]

to start our with that attitude when you are not even qualified yet and don't have any children etc requiring you to be elsewhere is not a good start

So staff with children get more favourable treatments, or are looked upon more favourable?

Why is the children thing relevant?

You have issues with his performance, address those. I would bring up the 5 minute thing... unless you know for certain that every single other member of the team don’t disappear from their desks to do other things, school pick up, deal with children, smoke, which take longer than that 5 minutes.

[KurriKawari]

"This is the way it is in our organisation/industry" sounds charming.

[Aneley]

Sounds like there are more issues with his performance than just his starting time. I understand why, in that case, being 5mins late adds to the overall negative impression. On its own, it wouldn't have been such a big deal, hopefully, if he was excelling at completing his tasks.

I would mention it in performance review as a minor thing that doesn't help his case for promotion.

[EveryDayIsADuvetDay]

I'm not managing staff in my current role (Hurrah!), however my approach would be the same as when physically in the office.
If it's someone that has a responsible attitude to their work, is flexible with time in other ways (shorter lunches, staying on a bit later to complete a task or meet a tight deadline) flexibility works both ways and it's not time critical that they are there on the dot of nine (eg receptionist, etc) - then I wouldn't have an issue.
The idiot waste of space who turned up late most days, was always out of the door at 5pm, took long lunches and numerous cigarette breaks through out the day got fairly short shrift when she claimed I was victimising her for speaking to her about her timekeeping.

[FieldOverFence]

I'm managing teams for 15 years at this stage, and in this scenario I would work on the poor outcomes rather than the time on the clock - you need to see what impact the 9:05 start is having on what he is supposed to deliver, and then work on that with him.

I wouldn't attack the 5 minutes for it's own sake, it will only encourage a work-to-rule type attitude

[KurriKawari]

Really hope the new ways of working get rid of these old unhealthy ways of working.

[C8H10N4O2]

There are other people in the same role who start work earlier than 9 to get things done so he stands out as doing less

Unless you are working in an environment which is highly paid and takes "free" overtime for granted your issue is under capacity in the team.

Five minutes here or there is irrelevant, the issue is your subsequent comments about general under performing. Focus on the actual issues not petty things like precise log on times which undermine issues of lateness for meetings, late to deliver artefacts etc. When you have your 1-2-1s what reasons have been given for these issues?

Also if very junior, what support has been put in place for coaching/networking for juniors in the absence of office based mentoring?

[KurriKawari]

I also love how these five minutes is when all the action happens in your workplace.
We have team meetings on monday, wednesday and friday where work is prioritised, tasked and reviewed. Maybe try something like that?

[sally067]

In my working career you were expected to be ready to start work at your agreed start time, so if that was 9am, you were expected to be in the office before 9am in order to switch on your computer, get yourself a coffee, use the loo etc and be at your desk ready to rock and roll at 9am.

Same here throughout most of my 20s and 30s but fortunately we are becoming more progressive in terms of valuing productivity above all that nonsense. Hopefully the next 20 years of work for me will be much less focused on time spent at a desk and controlled by micro managers.

[SMurphy91]

I think it's reasonable to expect him to work to the same standards as the rest of the team. If you're feeling unsure of whether you should mention it or not, I would mention it in a friendly advice kind of way e.g. I've noticed you're logging on slightly later than the rest of the team, it's no big deal but could go against you when it comes to progressing as you're the only one not online at 9am sharp

[rottiemum88]

@EatPrayYoga

His work otherwise is lacking and there is a general impression of not putting in enough effort or missing deadlines. If I ask for something by a certain time it is often late. There are often basic mistakes.

He is often late to meetings or forgets we have them. I have to say "are you coming to the meeting?"

It's not just the log on time but maybe I should put that aside and focus on the other things that are an issue.

He is behind on work so there is a problem and at least one other person doing the same role gets more done and in a shower yet time and he is no exceptional.

No idea why you zoned in on his start time if there are all these other issues Why haven't you implemented any performance management so far?

[nanbread]

Presenteeism does not equal productivity or being good at your job full stop. I wouldn't give a toss about 5 mins if someone was good at their job and hate the whole "being spied on" thing.

However the fact he's often late PLUS his work is sloppy and he can't manage his time suggest he's not actually very invested in this position and probably only wants the promotion because he thinks it will be an easier life for more money.

Have you offered him training in organising himself and his workload? Some people really struggle with this eg of they have undiagnosed ADHD and may need some more help.

[Opinionator]

Oh come off it!! It's 5 minutes, not only are you being unreasonable, but you're being absolutely ridiculous! He's a human being, are you seriously going to reprimand him for 5 minutes worth of work? Is that really the type of Manager you want to be? Have some flexibility for crying out loud. Managers like you are everything that's wrong with some companies. Remember these are people! You even admitted sometimes people have to stay late to get the job done, do you give them credit for this, or their time back? If not, you really need to have a word with yourself about how you treat your staff. So quick to jump on it if they're late, but no credit when they do well.

[Malbecfan]

This is not to the OP but to all those saying "it's only 5 minutes". At what time would you say something? 9:10, 9:15, 9:30, 10:00?

FWIW, DH has a new job which is currently home-based. He has flexi-time with core hours. I aim to leave the house at 7:30 & he normally fires up his work computer at the same time, before coming in for breakfast. He is normally at his desk ready to start by 8.

[Astella22]

Sounds like you can’t be that busy yourself if you are worrying about 5 mins of someone’s time.
I find it interesting that you mention he has no pets/kids, would this make a difference?
Being micro managed is the worst. I’ve come up agains this before but it reflected a poor manager who wasn’t confident in his role so did the only things he knew how to eg harp on about minor transgressions that made no difference to the works end result. Surly you could find something productive to do with your time in the morning.

[UpperLowercaseSymbolNumber]

OP a monthly 1-2-1 is just not often enough for a junior member of staff who under performs.

I would meet with him and say Clearly your performance isn’t meeting our expectations here, here and here. And if this doesn’t improve you will be looking at grade x in your performance review and promotion will be highly unlikely. I would then work with him to understand what is causing the issues and what the plan is to address them. For example does he need Technical training, does he appreciate the degree of rigour expected, does he have the right relationships built, does his work need more supervision. This stuff is harder when everyone is WFH when you’re a junior as you can’t see other people doing it.

You should also take advice from your HR around performance management requirements and at what point formal processes should be considered.

But really say it clearly and say it soon. You do nobody any favours by deferring this as all you’re doing is creating a nasty shock for him later.

[EatPrayYoga]

Oh right, so you’re expecting unpaid overtime as standard?

I'm not! I don't make those decisions. I am a supervisor but there are levels above me and I worked in these circumstances everywhere I have worked. In this profession we don't get overtime. That's standard. We get a salary, not an hourly rate.

But he does not work overtime. As I said it is not a case of him starting late and working late, it is starting late and finishing right on time but I take on board comments that he might be at his desk at nine and take time for computer to start up.

His contracted hours are 9-5 but based on the comments here I am not going to raise that.

It is a highly paid job.

He has a mentor who he meets with every week so he has a lot of support.

The children thing is relevant because during lockdown I know employees with staff would start work earlier but then sometimes be away from their desks to feed children or drop them off at school / child minder and there is no criticism for that as I know the reason.

I accept he may be at his desk at 9 and to be honest I had not thought of that! I always make sure I am logged on by 9 to try to set a good example as that is how I was told to work when I was at that stage.

[Rainb0wDrops]

Maybe he makes up those 5 minutes by not taking breaks throughout the morning to post on Mumsnet?!

[EatPrayYoga]

Oh come off it!! It's 5 minutes, not only are you being unreasonable, but you're being absolutely ridiculous!

What's with all the exclamation marks? I'm asking for opinions, which many people have kindly given, and I have taken these on board. Calm yourself!

[rashalert]

Will he mind if you dock him 1 hour and 40 minutes pay each month?

[SleepingStandingUp]

What time does he log off op? 4.55, 5 or 5.05?