To actually be really cross with Labour for letting this happen?

[RunBackwards]

How did they manage to be so bad at the last two elections that places like Mansfied ended up Tory?

I think some of the comments on here do a good job of shedding insight into why Labour 3.0 is doing badly.

You have people making some interesting measured points and then you have
@TheSeedsOfADream with "twattery" and "racists", followed by @Deathgrip and "delusional" and "ridiculous" in two different posts.

I see the political spectrum as a circle rather than a line. Once you shift so far left you become intolerant and unopen to discussing viewpoints that dont align with your own, you actually overlap with the far right (IMO). Whether extreme left or extreme right, theres a shared anti-intellectualism and rigidity of thought. That is why I believe we have arrived at the situation we are in now, permanently ruled by a right wing party.

Do people not feel embarrassed parroting Murdoch soundbytes? I guess it’s easier to blame Labour than admit you were manipulated, but there was nothing unelectable about Corbyn, particularly when compared to the fact that this country elected Boris fucking Johnson, the least electable man I’ve ever laid eyes on.

I’m astonished that people are still so hoodwinked.

What precisely was so unelectable about Corbyn, aside from you being told how unelectable he was? Unelectable was literally a Thick Of It joke. Do you honestly think this is your own independent opinion, that he was unelectable, despite so many posters using the same word.

It’s embarrassing.

followed by @Deathgrip and "delusional" and "ridiculous" in two different posts.

Because the comments are delusional and ridiculous. I am not even particularly left wing in my views, and I didn’t agree with all of Corbyn’s policies, but the comments on this thread are a perfect explanation for how we’ve ended up shit creek without a paddle, and whose fault it is.

The Tory are also, and have long been, a shit show. They are unelectable but that’s sort of their thing so ironically they get away with it! My friend at the last election didn’t vote Labour because of racism- fair enough. But who did she vote for instead? The Conservatives of course, who have never had a racism problem

@headstrong27

To me the labour party has become toxic & I hate all the identity politics. Who do they represent, they can't even decide amongst themselves.

I totally agree. I did my best to stick with it. But after the second feeble attempt to get rid of Corbyn I gave up.

I was furious with Corbyn over the first EU vote. He should have led the labour campaign to remain. His stance imo was crucial in the narrow loss. That was the beginning of the end for me.

I am furious with the activists who think the party is beholden to their intransigence. The manifesto was a joke. I am incredulous at their belief that by attacking the middle (who could not get on board with their tribalism or activist), they think they will voters back.

The refusal to talk or associate with anyone who voted Tory is not a staging point for winning their hearts and minds. Screaming abuse deflects from Tory failings. It doesn’t highlight them.

That is why I believe we have arrived at the situation we are in now, permanently ruled by a right wing party.

I agree

Labour is a shit show. The way Starmer has not uttered a word over the treatment of Rosie Duffield, has put the final nail in the coffin for me.

I was a staunch Labour supporter and no Deathgrip I don't agree with you.

I think it's insulting to people's intelligence telling them they have been hoodwinked.

Many Labour supporters do feel let down. They are a misogynistic party and a a woman, they are not best placed to meet what I want from my political leaders.

I'm now a member of the SDP and although I don't 100% agree with all their policies, they at least think about women in their policy making decisions.

@Deathgrip
Thank you for the spelling correction. Indeed I was wrong to call Corbyn a communist.. he is a marxist! The man is a disgrace who would have destroyed this country. You say he was elected twice as leader but who was he elected by? A mixture of hard left bullies in momentum and tory supporters who enjoyed meddling. Corbyn and momentum have destroyed the labour party. I had hope for Starmer but I've yet to see any decisive action in the party or policy presented to the electorate. Dont get me wrong I wouldn't vote Tory either.

Even in the confines of this thread you have people saying that labour needs to be remodeled as centre left AND as properly socialist. They can't win.
The Conservatives may complain about being known as the "nasty party" but it is, IMO, a far bigger help to them than it is a hindrance. People do not expect them to be any semblance of decency because "that's just the way it is". So they get away with it. It does, of course, help having the Murdoch press as your cheerleaders. Labour do not have this. Every slight scruple (and there have been some big ones, I'm not denying that) will have them crucified. Because their image (achieved or not) is of a party which is supposed to be doing good.

I don't think that Jeremy Corbyn was an ideal leader by any means but I did broadly like him and his policies. The people to blame for a Conservative government are the people who voted Conservative.

@Gingernaut

The high handed tactic of parachuting a non-resident (normally from London) into a 'safe' seat, taking for granted the support of Labour voters and not developing local talent has backfired a few times.

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/18034361.anger-labours-warrington-north-parachute-candidate/

Creating resentment amongst the core voters won't end well, let alone attract the wavering/undecided.

That's also true. The constituency next door to Mansfield (Ashfield) now boasts an ex Labour but now Conservative MP under constant investigation by his own party for gross misconduct (at last count, 5 this year alone including anti-Semitism) but hey! He's local! Unlike the previous incumbent, helicoptered in from some morning TV show sofa, lived in a different county and who was part of the failed coup against Jeremy Corbyn. Difficult to say which is worse, tbf.

Sorry, I realise that's not especially coherent.

@ANoTail I somewhat agree with that. The people I know who switched from labour to Tory very much saw it as at least I know what crap to expect from them.

In terms of scruples though I

Centre left and socialism are compatable. It should result in the flexibility of the middle ground influenced by the socialist values of provision and opportunity for all.
Why would we want to move the NHS away from a free at point of use model? We need to keep constantly striving to improve it and be prepared to fund it but why load the cost to the user? The user is the person who unfortunatly needing care is the least able to pay. Wider society benefits both economically and socially from a healthier population so that's why as a society we fund it.

YANBU. I actually quite like Corbyn- I don’t agree with everything he’s said and done but I think he’s one of the most consistent and principled politicians we’ve seen in this country in a long time. The wave of youth support behind him in the 2017 election was invigorating. But last year it was clear he couldn’t lead the party effectively and that he wasn’t popular enough across the board to win and he should have stepped down.

Of course I also blame the tories for the shitshow that is Boris Johnson.

I think it's insulting to people's intelligence telling them they have been hoodwinked.

But they have been. I appreciate it’s not very pleasant to think about, but it’s nevertheless true. Hearing the same newspaper soundbytes ad nauseum only confirms it.

People need to take some responsibility. This is what you voted for. I appreciate there was an enormous campaign to get Corbyn branded “unelectable” while that term was never used about the man currently dishing out over £100bn to his mates for bugger all.

Labour had a traditionally electable leader before Corbyn, and still people voted Tory. It’s not Labour’s fault that people in this country don’t give a shit about cuts until they land on their own doorstep. That’s what’s happening here - Corbyn is a convenient scapegoat.

And don’t give me that crap about it being because Labour are misogynists or racists while simultaneously voting for the bloody Conservatives.

Right now we’ve got people screaming bloody murder that the tories won’t feed hungry children, while simultaneously claiming that Corbyn would have destroyed the country through public spending. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t criticise the tories for avoiding public spending - this is who they are.

This is what we voted for. This is who the Conservatives are. Take some responsibility.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/21/government-covid-contracts-britain-nhs-corporate-executives-test-and-trace

They’re not even trying to hide most of it - so what are they hiding with the unaccounted for money?

Indeed I was wrong to call Corbyn a communist.. he is a marxist!

🤦‍♀️

Unbelievable

@Eng123

I agree with you that the centre left and socialism are compatible.

The French system is nothing like the American system. To me the NHS should move towards a French system because once your social security and your "mutual" insurance kicks in, you're paying practically nothing to see your doctor or have procedures, hospitalization, surgery etc. So yes, you pay for your monthly mutual (generally paid for by your company if you're salaried) but theres not much coming out of your pocket. People on the lowest income would pay close to nothing. I just think this would help support the NHS and while I like the principle of what the UK has now, i just feel its unsustainable.

Labour went too far to the left. Only gullible or very young idealistic people would follow.

And don’t give me that crap about it being because Labour are misogynists or racists while simultaneously voting for the bloody Conservatives

How DARE you imply I voted Conservative!!! I'd die before I voted for them!!!

I actually voted Labour because anything is better than the vile tories, but I am allowed to make an informed decision whereby I don't feel they represent my best interests.

You have a superiority complex deathgrip. You think you're right and everyone else is dumb because they think differently to you.

Labour is the fucking best of a bad bunch. Which isn't brilliant.

Of course I would vote Labour to get the scum tories out, but to imply that it's 'crap' to say that Labour is a misogynistic party, when all signs point to it, well, you need to take them blinkers off.

I don’t blame labour. It wouldn’t have mattered who they had at the helm at the last election when one party was promising brexit would 100% happen and the other wasn’t. People voted for brexit without enough thought to the other issues, so I have no sympathy at all for people who are struggling now because of government policy when this is what they voted for.

That’s why I find it so hypocritical now when there are so many ready to accuse other people of being selfish for just wanting to go about their normal lives. Where were all the accusations of selfish when people voted for brexit despite knowing how detrimental it would be for other people. Or country was already divided way before the pandemic.

Deathgrip Corbyn sides and endorses Venezuela with Chavez and Maduro. Do you think that is not enough to put people off? Or do you also think the political and social situation in Venezuela is acceptable?Did anybody say they care about children starving?

@Deathgrip you need to unclench. Not voting labour doesn't necessarily mean you voted Tory.

For Brexit I blame MP’s who got so caught up in the excitement of a referendum they didn’t even bother to discuss or even debate throughly in Parliament where this could lead to. A few hours of debates there was more debate on fox hunting

it’s utterly disgraceful that so many just went off on the campaign wagon anyone could do that but we can’t sit in Parliament and raise concerns. So so many let the country down regardless of what side they are on

Labour wasted four years very poor leadership when the country needed it most.

And don’t give me that crap about it being because Labour are misogynists or racists while simultaneously voting for the bloody Conservatives

Are there only 2 parties in the whole of the uk? Who knew.

If Labour had a leader that middle voters would have voted for a leader that more a leader that could lead their own party then they would have received more votes

It’s not that difficult to understand why Labour lost voters Corbyn was out of his depth which we witnessed over and over again especially in Parliament.

How can you have a party leader in an election that is dominated by Brexit that wants to remain neutral what fucking idiot came up with that idea and thought that will win voters over